Troll Lord Games

Just curious as to how many of you use miniatures during your games and to what extent. Do you map on the mat as you go? Do you just drop them on the grid during battles? etc. etc.

No minis, no battlemat or strict measuring in games I run. I just use description & a loosey goosey decision on lines of fire/what can be reached if it comes up.

Played in a game recently who used mini's but no battlemat and it was ok, definately clearer on who/where/what but I prefer the imagination of the scene and find the mini pulls me out of that into just seeing the "toys".

I have a battlemat as backup. Sometimes the players can't imagine clearly what I describe, e.g. exact positions of enemies. At such times I pull out the mat and draw a quick overview, sometimes using minis if they are in reach...

That depends on who I'm playing with. I definitely enjoy the use of mini's, battle mats, 3d props, etc. But I am just as at home without.

Usually I don't use these tools. I am more likely to use a whiteboard on an easel. In case the player's arent clear on a scene Im trying to present I will draw it up on the whiteboard. Other than that, it's all imagination in our C&C games.

If I have room, I'll use my Tac-Tiles and miniatures with the dungeon, usually only placing critters once encountered. Otherwise it's just a mapping tool and party order. Prevents the "but I said I was there, not here" arguements.

I used to on occasion, but I was in a gaming group that used them all the time. The main GM in the group had subtly different meanings for a lot common words; if we didn't use minis and a mat, frustration was guaranteed. My preference, however, is for fast play. Keep it moving and adjudicate in a forgiving fashion so, hopefully, everyone doesn't need to be on the same page in order to participate.

In my mini-using days, I designed a Cloudland-style adventure (not small) and cut out every room and corridor from 1" graph paper. I laid down map as they went and pulled it up behind them. It did provide a nice visual for them. I also had to be creative in order to hide secret rooms and passages. I remember one player being quite pleased with himself for being the only one to spot an anomaly that led to hidden treasure. (The dwarf even forgave that player's character for the beard-burning incident.)

I use both.

~O

I was pretty much against them until I played 3.5 and the tactical positioning was such a key part of the rules. Played some 4e too, and I can't imagine that without a map and lots of beads and things. Now I have a ton of D&D minis and a few battlemats and grid paper, and usually print out monster tokens from Fiery Dragon's stuff. I usually don't bother with searching my minis for monsters; the printed ones are easier to deal with and label, but the PCs like having painted minis.

If the encounter is simple enough sometimes I won't bother, but my players tend to care about positioning too much for me to get away without anymore.

One downside is, even though my maps are pretty big, is ranged attackers don't get enough value; they tend to be limited by the map size. When that happens I usually change the scale from 5' to 10' squares.

Sometimes I will print out a whole map and cover certain areas as they go, but usually I just draw them as they explore. It encourages player mapping slightly more when they know I am going to erase when the map fills up. Also, too fancy a map gets people distracted. "I look at that torch, I look at the fifth rock from the right, what is on that tapestry..."

Just Jeff wrote: cut out every room and corridor from 1" graph paper. I laid down map as they went and pulled it up behind them. It did provide a nice visual for them. I also had to be creative in order to hide secret rooms and passages. I remember one player being quite pleased with himself for being the only one to spot an anomaly that led to hidden treasure. (The dwarf even forgave that player's character for the beard-burning incident.)

Played under a DM once as a kid who did the cut-out dungeon thing, placing and removing as we moved. I loved it.

I use them both all the time for my games.

Maps...............

I managed to pick up a bunch of different items over the years for it. I started with a Chessex wet erase map, then got some WOTC tiles - the old sets, which i now have a bunch of. Like their initial paper maps and then the cardboard ones. Even got several sets of the Star Wars tiles.

After that I started getting into the Paizo stuff. First I started with their game mastery encounter stuff, but then decided to get their initial blank flip map. Now I have a ton of the Paizo Flip Maps along with their Game Mastery Map packs.

I use the Paizo Flip maps most often with some WOTC tile stuff thrown on it from time to time to break up the terrain. As of late, Paizo has been getting smart making the map packs more conducive to the flip maps, like their Necropolis Flip Map and the Crypt Map pack (which you can now write on).

Miniatures.........

We used lead figures for our games back in the 80s, but only for marching order. Usually if some combat was complicated - mass battle, etc. we might break out stuff from Axis & allies or use army guys, but mostly drew it out on graph paper. Probably about 10 years ago, I started getting miniatures for Warhammer 40K, then got some Arion PDF ones I printed out for a Testament RPG (Gaming in the Biblical Era game), which I used to great success. Used some Heroclix minis for a Mutants & Masterminds game as well. Now mostly it is D&D Pre-painted minis for my fantasy games combined with the tokens from Monster Vault. For my Sci-Fi games, I use my 40K minis along with some pre-painted Star Wars minis. I also use my Battle Fleet Gothic stuff for space ship combat.

Overall...........

I love the use of imagination, but I like the visual aid of a map and minis. Plus I bought all this stuff and have a ton of it, so I want to put it to good use. The only challegning part, if my players don't really feel motivated to get anything and rely on me to bring everything. I'm not complaining, but it would be cool to see them bring minatures (pre-painted, unpainted, etc) or even tokens. Next game I will encourage this a lot more, perhaps with an XP bonus.

I use maps and minis a lot. Particularly, for Savage Worlds. The game is somewhat tactical, but not near as much as 3.5, D20 Mod, D20 Star Wars, etc. I tend to use them for C&C as well(primarily to keep track of where everybody's at). I like the eye candy, but there's something to be said for not having it. Either way, the medium-sized Chessex map used to be my weapon of choice. Since 2005 GC, it's been the blank flipmats. Can't beat em' for convenience and ease of use. As for minis, I use just about anything. Reaper, Milton Bradley Heroscape, Hero Clix, Horror Clix, Star Wars and D&D minis, as well as Savage Worlds' line of cardstock characters.

No miniatures, no battle map, no adventuring map.

I've got to admit it, Serl. 100% theater of the mind is always best if you can do it.

YEs, we use battle mats, minis, cardstock buildings, dungeon tiles and as a group it works well for all of us. The players tend to do their own mapping as well.

Not all situations require the use of said items, much depends on what's happening in the game.

I don't use either. I personally think they distract player's attention from the GM and each other, cutting down on role-playing. I also dislike the way the total, top-down view encourages cool tactical thinking in combat. Real hand-to-hand combat is a bloody chaotic mess where, no matter how skilled you are, you can never be absolutely sure that that you aren't going to accidentally kill a friend. Knowing absolute distance and position leads to good decision making - the kind of good decisions that are rare in real fights!

clavis123 wrote:the total, top-down view encourages cool tactical thinking in combat. Real hand-to-hand combat is a bloody chaotic mess where, no matter how skilled you are, you can never be absolutely sure that that you aren't going to accidentally kill a friend. Knowing absolute distance and position leads to good decision making - the kind of good decisions that are rare in real fights!

This is interesting, and something that I toss back and forth in my head all of the time.

On the one hand I agree with you. As somebody already posted, there is definitely something to be said about mini/mapless combat and the wonderful images your mind evokes without them.

On the other hand, In the current 2e game I play in the DM rarely uses his mat or minis. He will drop mini's down for general positioning, but that's about the extend of it. What I have found is that it turns combat into the characters simply expending their resources.

Example without map or minis: "Ok, so there is a white dragon, I'm obviously gonna hurl fireballs at it."
Example with map and minis: "Ok, there is a white dragon, I want to throw some fireballs at it but I'm not quite close enough to hit, better run up those stairs and drop down onto the bookshelf to get a bit closer."

Now, in the first example the DM may have included the stairs and bookshelf in his description, but when you are trying to envision the entire room, the monsters, and your comrades all in your head, the bookshelf is probably one of the first things you'll forget, so you just hurl your resources where you are standing and hope to whittle the monster down. Combat just seems so much more engaging when you actually engage in it, taking advantage of the space given, furnishings in the room, trees etc. And as far as realism goes, I like to imagine that my character would be able to gauge distance quickly and take advantage of his surroundings. As for the making bad mistakes and hurting friends and whatnot, I agree that a degree of uncertainty is great in a game, but not because the players aren't on as equal ground as the monsters/DM (who has the whole room memorized and is keeping much better track of where everybody).

BUT, I also understand that either of these situations could be the complete opposite, based on the group and DM. I'm not arguing for one side, and often consider running my games without maps/minis. I just like hearing both sides of the story from other's experiences : )

One thing I can say about the 2e game I'm in is that combat is often quick and less cumbersome then in games where I pay attention to positioning and all that. But it does get a bit stale at times.

Ozreth wrote: Example without map or minis: "Ok, so there is a white dragon, I'm obviously gonna hurl fireballs at it."
Example with map and minis: "Ok, there is a white dragon, I want to throw some fireballs at it but I'm not quite close enough to hit, better run up those stairs and drop down onto the bookshelf to get a bit closer."

You're right, of course. It is more difficult for most players to visualize combat without some kind of aid. As a CK, I have to work much harder to create a good description of what's going on. That's the trade-off for the immersion and flexibility of going mini-less. For some groups that trade-off isn't worth it. For me, it is.

As a player, I've played both with (in 3rd Edition and 4th Edition games) and without minis. 3E, for example, is very hard to to play without miniatures. 4E absolutely cannot be played correctly without miniatures. I found that having the minis really puts the emphasis on the game as a tactical exercise. For many groups, that's precisely what they want. I admit to also enjoying that kind of game occasionally. When I CK, however, I tend towards role-playing heavy scenarios with lots of NPCs, and many hack-proof situations (although I also love to occasionally throw in some classic "funhouse" dungeons). So, I'm willing to take the tradeoff of less tactical battles.

Even I don't go completely without visual aids. Much like Breakdaddy mentioned, I will often use a pad of newsprint paper and markers to sketch out difficult to describe areas, areas with an important visual clue, or a tactically important view (such as out a tower window).

The one thing that miniatures absolutely do better than narrative description is adjudicating location-sensitive traps. If you sketch out a room and tell the players to indicate exactly where their PCs are walking, they automatically know that something is wrong. With minis and a map, its just business as usual, up to the point where they fall into a 30 foot deep spiked pit!

The one thing that miniatures absolutely do better than narrative description is adjudicating location-sensitive traps. If you sketch out a room and tell the players to indicate exactly where their PCs are walking, they automatically know that something is wrong. With minis and a map, its just business as usual, up to the point where they fall into a 30 foot deep spiked pit!

Actually, I have this problem even with minis. We don't end up usually doing square-by-square exploration between combats, too much to draw if I am doing it on the fly. Wherever people are when a trap goes off, they will inevitably cry "I wouldn't have been there!" even if they are moving on the mat.

I wouldn't do that either, square by square exploration is a bit much for me

I have done both. After haveing played 3.5/Pathfinder, I have a huge collection of minis. I used them back when we used lead minis in my AD&D days. There are drawbacks I suppose, but I have built a room in the basement that includes a cork board for hanging pictures and maps. The tables are centered around a huge 1" map grid covered by plaxi-glass that I wipe off with a spong between encounters.

For me, I use them when needed; dungeons, battles, searches. In town I do not do that so much. It is more about roleplaying then.

I find my players need the tactical view and that way there are less arguments. I like my collection too.

I use them when combat situations are complicated: weird terrain, lots of opponents (it's one thing to hear you're surrounded, it's another to see it).

I generally do not draw dungeons. That takes the place of the mapper, and the party is responsible for not losing their own way. I might draw a room or two when the shapes are hard to describe, but that's it.

I tend to use minis simply because I like to paint them and sometimes mats when we play random dungeons.

I find battlemats and minis are good for rooms, yes.
That way I can draw the room, chests, tables, a dias, stairs,
overlooking walkways, etc. and the players can 'see' the area
and arrange themselves (their minis) accordingly.
Otherwise, yeah, description and so on and let someone in
the party play 'mapper'...especially for areas where getting
lost is a disctinct possibility.

For small fights I don't use anything. For bigger things there is some sort of mini/counter and, if I need them, I use dominoes for room dimensions. It is all very loose and used just to get a general idea of who is where.

Yes
I use minis and a battle mat

I use minis just because I have a nice little collection I've painted, and it's nice to get them out into circulation for a few hours on the odd chance I get to play. I'm gravitating away from the battlemat and more toward the FDG terrain. I've put together enough of it to be able to mock up a bunch of different rooms.

Both, although I'm more inclined to use them for the bigger, more epic battles than the tavern brawl of the week.