Monk; fast healing, 1d4+1 or 1d4 (+1)

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:36 am

Hmmm, I'm reading over the Monk class again and I noticed something that I'm not sure of.

Monk, PHBv2 page 20:

A monk heals 1d4+1 hit points per level each day.

Does that mean at 7th level the monk can recover 7d4+7 per day?

I first took this to be 1d4+1 each level, but is it MEANT to mean,

1d4 Hit Points +1 Hit Point per level each day?

So at 7th level that is 1d4+7.

The difference is pretty big.

For now I'll just use as written, 1d4+1 hit points per level per day (so at 7th level that is 7d4+7! woot)

Veritas · Post by **Veritas** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:16 am

I assumed it was the latter... 1d4 + (1*level).

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:26 am

I would choose the former, the ability is relatively useless if it only heals 1d4+7 hit points at seventh level once per day. I think it should scale with the Monk's potential hit points, so I read it as 2-5 hit points per level.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:36 am

Thats the way I do it. 1d4+1/level. so 7d4+7 at 7th.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:37 am

Its not useless. Characters have a slow healing rate as is, so the monk's non-magical ability to heal more so is "fast." If it does Level X (d4+1) its better than lay on hands and equivalent to clerical healing spells. One might argue "but the monk gets soooo many HP," to which I reply: and they can use healing potions and spells. They don't need more to make them cockroaches. So, definitely the d4 + (level x 1) and not level * (d4+1). This is in addition to normal healing, too....

Veritas · Post by **Veritas** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:56 am

Yeah, if PCs gained back 1 hp/level for resting, as they do in d20D&D, I'd definitely have said the former was right, but with them only getting 1hp back for resting, like in AD&D, it was defnitely the latter for me.

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:33 am

Well, I let characters in my campaign gain back 1 hp/level (2 hp/level for complete bed rest). I do this not because of 3E (been playing since 1E), but because I view hit points as more than just brute toughness. Take a monk with 90 HP and a Wizard with 30 HP. If the wizard took 20 HP of damage, it would be like the Monk taking 60 HP (to have the same type of grevious wound).

But thats just me.

Maybe it will work best if I triple the rate of healing for a monk....

Veritas · Post by **Veritas** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:54 am

phadeout wrote:
Take a monk with 90 HP and a Wizard with 30 HP. If the wizard took 20 HP of damage, it would be like the Monk taking 60 HP (to have the same type of grevious wound).

It's not just you. That's exactly what hit points mean. They're a relative measure of a character's combat skill. I'm just saying that by the rules, characters get 1 hp back for a day's rest, so the monk ability gives them 1d4+(1*level), by those rules.

If you want to make it 1 hp/level, that's perfectly fine. If that's the case, make it (1d4+1)*level for monks instead of 1 hp/level.

Personally, the reason I was seeing if a Vitality & Wound system would work for C&C (in another thread) was to explicitly differentiate the skill and toughness parts of hit points. The goal was to make it simple, though, which is harder, since inherently, it complicates things.

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:15 pm

Meh, to each their own.
Monks must rest for the healing like other characters, it's not like they can instantly pop those hit points back in the middle of a combat. And they can't use it on anyone else. From the self-reliant mystic standpoint, I'd prefer them to be fit to jump back in after a couple days of rest, as opposed to over a week. Additionally, when CKing an adventuring party, I like (1d4+1) hit points per level per day, frankly, so that the cleric or druid is relieved a little of the burden of unloading so many healing spells to get the party back on their feet. If a monk or paladin is in the group, it's a nice relief, and I don't feel the need to limit it. On top of it, with the monk's d12 hit points per level they're not getting 'em all back, just a portion. A seventh level monk has the potential to have 84 hit points without Constitution bonuses, and the max they could heal from a day of bedrest using my method is 35 per day... it's still 3 days of complete rest to bring them back to full strength.

AND, re-reading it... the monk needs to rest for 12 hours, then meditate in a serene environment for 6 with plenty of food and water available to regain those hit points... that's 18 hours in a day... they're completely out of commission for an ability that grants 8-11 hit points?

It doesn't seem like a game breaker to me to give them 1d4+1, per level. I might lean toward only (1d4)+1 hit point per level if it were a first level monk ability, when they can really use that extra healing from resting, and then the ability would slowly lose its usefulness as the party gained levels. But for an ability gained at seventh level... it strikes me as "why bother"?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:16 pm

Wizards must rest and rememorize spells for long periods of time. It is to ensure some measure of "this character is not GOD" exists. Its about enforcing smart play, and not the computer model of "ok,. black screen.. everyone's healed... let's go to the next level of the dungeon."

If you get caught in the middle of a dungeon delve, you'd better retreat and come back when you're at full force. Smart play... not superheroes.

Of course, that can be changed, which is the beauty of simplicity... but the game is meant, and states, its for "epic storytelling."

Epics are long, and arduous. Keep that in mind for any "how does it work?" questions.... its supposed to work the "long way."

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:40 am

serleran wrote:
Wizards must rest and rememorize spells for long periods of time. It is to ensure some measure of "this character is not GOD" exists. Its about enforcing smart play, and not the computer model of "ok,. black screen.. everyone's healed... let's go to the next level of the dungeon."

If you get caught in the middle of a dungeon delve, you'd better retreat and come back when you're at full force. Smart play... not superheroes.

Of course, that can be changed, which is the beauty of simplicity... but the game is meant, and states, its for "epic storytelling."

Epics are long, and arduous. Keep that in mind for any "how does it work?" questions.... its supposed to work the "long way."

Good point for wizards, but comparing the power of several levels of wizard spells to the healing ability Monks gain at 7th level doesn't illustrate the point for me. Particularly with the way saving throws work in C&C against spells, I definitely make sure the rest and memorization times for wizard spells are upheld, but I don't personally see how cutting a rest from 7 days to 3 for one character in the party transforms it from a long, arduous epic to a sweeping high fantasy opera. Nor does it make a monk a godlike character in my humble opinion... it is a personal ability which heals them damage. It's not a fireball or magic missile that they can sling around a few times a day.
It's a minor ability regardless... I'd be more happy to play in a game with a good CK who wanted the ability to be 1d4, +1 hit point per level, of which I'm sure you are one... But when I am the CK, it's 2-5 hit points per monk level.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:00 am

Well, "Have it your way." isn't just the motto of a fast food restaurant, its one of the philosophies of this game and most, if not all of our board members.

So my way is the 7d4+7 way. 1d4+7 is just too worthless, and this is one of the reasons Monks xp's are the way they are. So increased xp cost/level should net an improvement in the ability those xp's are paying for.

That is the way I see it anyways. A 1 HP improvement doesn't cut it with me. It might if I knew the xp cost was a pittance, but as far as I can tell using Ser's class breakdown suggestions, the cost is enough that I am fine with allowing 7d4+7.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:24 am

Treebore wrote:
Well, "Have it your way." isn't just the motto of a fast food restaurant, its one of the philosophies of this game and most, if not all of our board members.

Dont forget "Do you want dice with that?"
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:09 am

If you go by 1st edition, it's +1 per level of the monk, which pretty much clears up the intended interpretation of the monk's healing ability. For those who don't like that, simply home rule it.

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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:17 am

More errata for 3rd printing?

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:36 pm

As a CK I'd go with 1d4, +1 hp/level. As a player I'll argue for 1d4+1/level
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:27 pm

Maliki wrote:
As a CK I'd go with 1d4, +1 hp/level. As a player I'll argue for 1d4+1/level

C&C PHB Healing Rules: 1d4, +1 HP/Level

1 HP/Level Healing rules (x2 bed rest): 1d4+1 HP/Level (at least) I go with 1d4+2 HP/Level in this case, 1d4 more than everyone else, since this is basically the monk's version of bed rest.

either way, it's still a good ability

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:56 pm

Maliki wrote:
As a CK I'd go with 1d4, +1 hp/level. As a player I'll argue for 1d4+1/level

I always have to run it... I never get to play, dernit. But I'm still houseruling this puppy.

Call me crazy! Next thing you know I'll have half-dragon barbarian/rogue porcupines running around in the campaign world...
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:12 am

You know, it has always annoyed me to no end that having a high con means you heal slower. For instance, a 5th level character with an 18 CON has an extra 15 HP than one with a 10 CON. However, by resting, he still only heals 5hp per day. This means that he takes 3 days longer to heal. What's worse, a sickly person with a 3 CON takes even less time to heal up to full HP.

I think you should get to add your CON bonus to how much HP you heal per day.

Lets say these characters have 25 HP from their class, without the CON bonus.

Mr 18 CON could heal from 0 to full HP (40) in 5 days.

Mr. 10 CON would heal from 0 to full HP (25) also in 5 days.

Mr. 3 CON would heal from 0 to full HP (10) also in 5 days.

Using the current model, 1HP/day/level, Mr 18 CON takes 8 days to heal and Mr. 10 CON takes 5 days, and sickly Mr. 3 CON for some reason heals to full health in 2 days.

Trying the same example, but with Level 10 Character with 50 Base HP:

Mr 18CON heals from 0 to Full HP (80) in 10 days while Mr 10 CON does so also in 10 Days. Mr. 3 CON would also take 10 days.

The point of this is that a person with the same care and rest will fully heal the same as anyone esle with the same care. In the current system, the healthier you are (and thus, the higher your CON) the slower you heal.
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Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:43 pm

That makes a heck of a lot of sense, Bash. I think I'll houserule this as well.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:41 pm

Thats one of the few things I agreed with in 3E.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:37 pm

'Tis a good rule. In our v3.5 games we use:

Heal 1 point per day of rest, plus any con modifier (to a minimum of 1).

Thought about using a variation of this with C&C, but as of yet havn't.

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:14 pm

BASH MAN wrote:
I think you should get to add your CON bonus to how much HP you heal per day.

"In general, hit points heal at a rate of one point per day and only if the character is resting, well fed, kept warm and the wounds being tended to. After seven days, the rate of healing increases to include the consitition bonus, if any. After 1 4 days, the rate of healing doubles, and after 30 days it triples. Rates of healing can be adjusted by magical healing, herbs, diet, level of care or other factors the CK deems applicable"

C&C PHB Page 120, right column, paragraph 8.
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:13 pm

So the base C&C game already has CON factored in (postive CON at least).

I like the idea of adding the CON bonus to hit points (or taking away points per day if negative).

Dawnshadow · Post by **Dawnshadow** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:33 pm

As long as you still get at least 1 hit point back per day.

CON 7, level 1.. subtract the CON modifier from the hit points.. "You don't heal for a week"

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:43 pm

phadeout wrote:
So the base C&C game already has CON factored in (postive CON at least).

I like the idea of adding the CON bonus to hit points (or taking away points per day if negative).

Yup yup. And I see no logical reason why a monk couldn't add in their con bonus to their healing ability, following the same stipulations as the healing section in the PHB.
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phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:52 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Yup yup. And I see no logical reason why a monk couldn't add in their con bonus to their healing ability, following the same stipulations as the healing section in the PHB.

ah, good point!