Troll Lord Games

I did a search for this topic, and nothing came back. (Excuse me if it has been asked before.)

If evil clerics can turn paladins, why would anybody play a paladin? A muticlass fighter/cleric would have more abilities, fewer alignment problems, and couldn't be turned.

Biggest reason I can think of, is that a multi-class levels much slower than a single classed paladin. This may limit how many and how available the various abililities might be at a given time. These abilities may also suffer some hinderance pending how multi-class was ruled.

A paladin has a lot of built in resistances that give them a much greater advantage over the multi-class IMO when fighting evil extra planar critters and some undead.

That and a paladin is simply much cooler. I don't know what all the fluff and dander is about a paladin's alignment. It's not that difficult to play without hindering a party that isn't comprised of evil PCs and/or those simply out for grab ass. At least I've never found it so...and I've ran dozens of paladins and cavalier-paladins quite successfully.

I guess a cleric/fighter multiclass could be more powerful, but like Go0 said.

a multi-class levels much slower than a single classed paladin ... & A paladin has a lot of built in resistances that give them a much greater advantage over the multi-class

Even if a max/min player crunches the numbers and on paper a Fighter/Cleric is better, I'd prefer the Paladin.

Also I can't say it better than Go0

That and a paladin is simply much cooler.

The Paladin is my favorite class because it is THE GOOD GUY. No if ands or buts, a Paladin has to be a good guy and being a good guy/hero is always part of my games.

As for the "fluff" about his alignment, I'd say it is because the Paladin is misplayed. LG doesn't equil a stick in the mud or an arrogant fool. However, that is how I've seen Paladins played so many times.

I play Paladins because they are awesome. Their dedication to their cause is unsurpassed. They are the epitome of honestly and loyalty and all things that are right in the world. They are paragons of decency and the pillar of humanity that holds up the roof of righteousness. They give, nor accept, quarter from the heathens that infiltrate our world. They are strong. They are resilient. They are the warriors of light.

They are Paladins.

Can you say that about Fighter / Clerics? No.

Go0gleplex wrote:That and a paladin is simply much cooler.

QFT.

Coolness factor aside, why play the only class which can be turned by an evil cleric. You can have all the power in the world, and it won't do you any good if you can't make use of it.

dutch206 wrote:Coolness factor aside, why play the only class which can be turned by an evil cleric. You can have all the power in the world, and it won't do you any good if you can't make use of it.

Coolness factor aside? You're playing a game in which you are heroes and vanquisher's of evil! If it wasn't cool to play, I'd be collecting ceramic cows or something with my money. How cool is it to set down with a calculator and try and figure out the 0.4% chance my Illusionist / Cleric / Bard has of defeating the Evil Dark Lord Cleric / Wizard / Barbarian Half-Elf? You play a Paladin (or any other class) because its fun.

dutch206 wrote:Coolness factor aside, why play the only class which can be turned by an evil cleric. You can have all the power in the world, and it won't do you any good if you can't make use of it.

There are a lot of assumptions in this limitation, such as: 1) The paladin has no friends to help him defeat the evil cleric, 2) The world is crawling with evil clerics, putting the paladin in constant danger, 3) The evil cleric always succeeds on the turn attempt against the paladin, etc. Is it really such a "high risk" scenario that a paladin isn't worth playing? I'm kind of thinking "no," but then again, I don't know what kind of game world you're playing in. Perhaps "evil clerics" are the standard template for most of the people in the world. In that case, yeah, playing a paladin would be quite the challenge (though still potentially fun).

Furthermore, the CK has some latitude in what it means to say that Paladins can be turned by evil clerics. For example, a player can argue that at 6th level, Paladins gain Aura of Courage, making them immune to fear ("magical or otherwise"). It's reasonable to rule that from 6th level on, they can no longer be turned. A CK can (and probably should) also rule that "turn-about is fair play" and evil clerics can also be turned by Paladins. There are lots of interesting options to toy with.

Finally, the Paladin is also the only class in the game that can Smite the evil clerics...

Finally, the Paladin is also the only class in the game that can Smite the evil clerics...

Rgr on that. Picture the Paladin charging at full speed sword over head crying out his battle cry & prayer to the gods and ... who gets the init, does the Paladin strike before the cleric can finish the turning, etc. Even if the Paladin looses init and the Cleric gets his turning off before he Paladin swings, its still a great role playing moment.

Also, Like Redwullf said, while the Cleric is busy turning the Paladin, all the rest of the party can pelt him with what ever they have and potentially break the Cleric's turning attempt.

"turn-about is fair play" and evil clerics can also be turned by Paladins.

I never thought about that ... I might have to house rule it and see how it goes!

Lurker wrote:Rgr on that. Picture the Paladin charging at full speed sword over head crying out his battle cry & prayer to the gods and ... who gets the init, does the Paladin strike before the cleric can finish the turning, etc. Even if the Paladin looses init and the Cleric gets his turning off before he Paladin swings, its still a great role playing moment.

Also, Like Redwullf said, while the Cleric is busy turning the Paladin, all the rest of the party can pelt him with what ever they have and potentially break the Cleric's turning attempt.

"turn-about is fair play" and evil clerics can also be turned by Paladins.

I never thought about that ... I might have to house rule it and see how it goes!

Indeed. Looking more closely at Turn Undead, I'd add +2 to the Cleric's CL on the attempt, for the Paladin's Divine Aura ability (since the pally doesn't get a saving throw). So, CL would be Paladin's Level + 2 through 5th level (CL 3 through 7). At 6th level, I'd rule that the paladin's Aura of Courage makes them immune to turning.

Lurker wrote:Rgr on that. Picture the Paladin charging at full speed sword over head crying out his battle cry & prayer to the gods and ... who gets the init, does the Paladin strike before the cleric can finish the turning, etc. Even if the Paladin looses init and the Cleric gets his turning off before he Paladin swings, its still a great role playing moment.

And, even if the Cleric gains init, a failed Turn Attempt spells doom.

Hmm...reading the descriptions of play that you guys give, I'd have to say that my evil cleric would definitely turn...yep, turn quickly and run away screaming...

Turning of a Paladin is no different from turning a unique undead really. One is steeped in extreme evil, the other connected directly to their deity. It isn't fear so much as it is brushing aside the divine power. King trumps Queen. The paladin wisely withdraws since his divine connection has been severed or impaired. At least that's one way of looking at it. It doesn't mean the paladin is doomed, only that he is unable to face that particular cleric and must withdraw immediately of possible.

Clerics cannot be turned or you'd have clerics turning clerics all over the place. A Paladin can be turned since he is merely a champion, not a wielder of divine energies.

Also, as mentioned, what cleric is going to waste time trying to turn a paladin when they have "x" number of other good guys barreling down on them to separate head from body? My bet is they will run if possible or try to do as much damage as they can in an attempt to stave off their own doom. The only time the turning might come into play is if the Paladin is their sole opponent. They could not kill the paladin themselves either unless using magic, since if they come within 10-ft of the pally, the turn is broken or if the pally is attacked. So it's not all doom and gloom. What would really make it memorable is if the cleric is 5+ levels higher than the pally, which would then allow them to control the pally.

OK--"Aura of Courage" answered my question. Thanks.

The only problem I have with the Aura of Courage is that turning has nothing to do with instilling fear. It is the channeling of positive and negative energy. This has an effect much like the army's new crowd suppression/microwave emitter, creating an unpleasant sensation in the affected individual causing them to flee, or if projected in sufficient strength, destroying the target, though how this destruction result would apply to the turning of a paladin I don't know. Cowering is merely trying to protect as much of oneself as possible when there is no protection to really be had. The breaking of the turn is like cornering a rat...it will attack since it is not given another choice or out of instinctual response.

I mean, really, a skeleton is gonna turn to dust out of fear? Not.

Go0gleplex wrote:The only problem I have with the Aura of Courage is that turning has nothing to do with instilling fear. It is the channeling of positive and negative energy. This has an effect much like the army's new crowd suppression/microwave emitter, creating an unpleasant sensation in the affected individual causing them to flee, or if projected in sufficient strength, destroying the target, though how this destruction result would apply to the turning of a paladin I don't know. Cowering is merely trying to protect as much of oneself as possible when there is no protection to really be had. The breaking of the turn is like cornering a rat...it will attack since it is not given another choice or out of instinctual response.

I mean, really, a skeleton is gonna turn to dust out of fear? Not.

Well, I think this is an interpretation of the Turning affect. I'm not saying anything's wrong with your interpretation - it is your own. I would just say that my interpretation is different. Since the mid-80's I've always worked under the assumption that a Turn Undead effect causes them to "flee" or "cower" in terror of the Cleric's awesome (and HOLY) divine might. The words "flee" and "cower" certainly give it that impression (note, the Fear spell uses the same language).

At any rate, that's the beauty of the system - CK's call.

Paladins make great villains. They do not make good companions, especially for a murderous, genocidal, loot-filled adventuring party with better things to do than remain righteous and "holy."

That is one reason I am very glad they have a mighty weakness. Evil, especially in its raw and supernatural form, should put any mortal in pause, perhaps even breaking... it makes victory that much better.