Troll Lord Games

Ok. Reading the spell descriptions for Minor and Major Image leads to some questions, specifically regarding this sentence in both:

"Creatures who view the illusion believe it, and can suffer damage from illusions."

So, all creatures (ie, non-intelligent organisms), believe an illusion. No problem there, unless 'creatures' is meant to encompass intelligent monsters and characters. If so, then the statement's inconsistent with being able to use a saving throw to disbelieve.

The big problem is the "and can suffer damage from illusions" bit.

First, does this mean that ONLY non-intelligent organisms can be damaged by illusions? Read strictly, that's what the sentence seems to imply.

Second, how much damage does an illusion do? Is it based on whatever the caster creates? What limits what the caster can create? Presumably, the caster can create the same illusion using both Minor and Major Image, but a Minor Image has limitations on movement, smell, etc...

So, for instance, a strict reading means that a caster using Major Image could create an image of a dragon, and have it appear to attack the creatures which automatically believe it. Does it do damage based on what a dragon would do? Since Minor Image places no restrictions on being believed and damaged by creatures, it seems that a caster could use Minor Image to create a dragon also.

It may be the intent for the Castle Keeper to make rulings on what damage can be done, or what can be created with the 'Image' spells, but this seems to be something of a headache when something as simple as "Only one 'attack' roll is made with any image, and does damage equal to 1d6 per Caster Level." Or something like that.

Maze: Uh. So why would anybody try to find their way out of the maze if they have an intelligence of 8 or less?

These three spells all seem like they were tried to be made 'more clever' only to make them more complicated/broken than their D20 versions.

I don't see why you are linking the word creature with non intelligent beings only? I don't think the word implies that.

I don't think saves to disbelieve are automatic in C&C. I think the default status is that illusions are believed unless there is some compelling reason not too. For example if a PC walks past an illusory wall made with minor image, he doesn't get an automatic save to disbelieve, there is no reason to. But if same pc tries to lean on that wall he will discover the illusion (no textural component).


Minor Image:

The illusion does not create smell, texture or temperature.

It would be hard to simulate convincing dragon breath without these factors. If a caster tried with minor image I would begin giving saves to disbelieve for this reason.


As for major image yes i think you could create illusory dragon & breathe. I think caster level xd6 would be fair.

Maze- I suppose it would depend on what the CK thought the creatures reaction to begin placed in a maze would be. Many creatures natural reaction could be to begin working their way through it, others may stand in shock or fear. I'd probably decide by a random roll if I didn't have a strong idea of a creatures reaction already as CK.

There's been a lot of debate on the nature of illusion in other threads on the forum here. Some of this has been expounded upon in the CKG.

Your assumption about non-intelligent creatures only being affected vs intelligent creatures is actually backwards. Intelligent creatures are more likely to instinctively fill in the gaps and inconsistencies of an illusion...or generate addtional details the spell will feed on. Unintelligent creatures will tend to react only to what stimulous of the senses is present and are thus less likely to be affected by an illusion IMO.

Additionally, blind creatures will also tend to react to sensory information as well as opposed to being able to visualize and fill in an illusion.

The damage part comes from the mind playing its own tricks upon itself. It believes there is damage and so reacts as if there is damage, with potentially lethal results.

Never having had to worry about a Maze spell, I would simply hazard a guess that while the creature is trying to work its way out, a low intelligence creature will have a greater handicap. I'd allow an INT check at least once with a natural 20 letting them escape, repeating as necessary per conditions present. Of course the TN roll would be adjusted for similar factors, such being the CK's perogative.

zarathustra wrote:I don't see why you are linking the word creature with non intelligent beings only? I don't think the word implies that.

I don't think saves to disbelieve are automatic in C&C. I think the default status is that illusions are believed unless there is some compelling reason not too. For example if a PC walks past an illusory wall made with minor image, he doesn't get an automatic save to disbelieve, there is no reason to. But if same pc tries to lean on that wall he will discover the illusion (no textural component).

Ok, I guess I can see this.. I think the wording is somewhat poor nevertheless.

Minor Image:

The illusion does not create smell, texture or temperature.

It would be hard to simulate convincing dragon breath without these factors. If a caster tried with minor image I would begin giving saves to disbelieve for this reason.


As for major image yes i think you could create illusory dragon & breathe. I think caster level xd6 would be fair.

Ok, I see the point on minor image.

I guess I would have liked to have seen a bit more... direction here. Comparing to the original D20 spells, they don't list these spells as causing damage in the spell descriptions. Adding the damage component without parameterizing how the damage is caused is a bit... odd. I've noticed that in general, spell changes in Castles and Crusades tend to make spells more powerful.

Maze- I suppose it would depend on what the CK thought the creatures reaction to begin placed in a maze would be. Many creatures natural reaction could be to begin working their way through it, others may stand in shock or fear. I'd probably decide by a random roll if I didn't have a strong idea of a creatures reaction already as CK.

I guess I just didn't see the need to change the original D20 version which requires a check every round, and then kicks the victim out of the maze if they don't get out after 10 minutes. In that version, there's no difference between a creature that tries to escape but can't and one that doesn't even try, and therefore the maximum length of time any character will stay in the maze is 10 minutes.

Maze (D20 version)

If the subject doesn’t escape, the maze disappears after 10 minutes, forcing the subject to leave.

In the C&C version, the victim - assuming it guesses what's going on - can just sit quietly and wait for 10 minutes. A PLAYER might guess what's going on even better and just say "My character is confused, and because he knows he isn't that smart, is just gonna sit and wait for someone to find him."

I guess this change seems like it was made because of the difference in how saves and attribute checks are done between D20 and C&C, but it just doesn't feel particularly well thought out. The nice thing about RPGs though is... just change what seems odd.

I don't think tweaking a few spells to versions you like better or work better for your group is a big deal. I would think most groups have a clarification or tweak here or there.

I think the main reason for not specifying what dmg an illusion "did" is that the illusion can be so varied in form (& thus effect) & they didn't want to hem it in. For example if you used major image to create illusions of berserkers with axes, they should do axe dmg- maybe add a str bonus if the caster specifies enormous muscular ones. The dmg should stay consistent with the illusion.

The method of outlining the spell but not exhautively listing every possible contingency is more of an "old school" approach. It simply puts the power back in the CK's hand to clarify all these little things for their group.

The basic difference in philosophy is "rulings not rules" . The game relies on the Ck to make rulings in these situations that suit his game best, rather than having huge lists of complicated rules defining every single contingency.

It makes sense to old grognards who are used to sparser rule sets, I have noticed the change in philosophy seems perplexing at first to some people.

Or maybe I am reading too much rpg theory into little things.

Oh, I like the philosophy of rulings not rules. The problem is, at least in the spell lists, that some spells are very specific, others are very vague. And then... I read a bit further, and discovered a group of spells that really makes the addition of possible damage to the 'Image' spells seem very odd.

Shades, and Shadow Conjuration.

Both of these create quasi-real illusions of creatures with limits on:

1. Total Normal HD (equal to caster level)
2. Hit Points (% of normal)
3. Damage (full, or % of normal if subject realizes they're an illusion)

Shadow Evocation creates quasi-real spell effects in a similar manner.

These spells are higher level than the Image spells. To me, I think the Image spells should have no damage component because of this, OR they should be specified as not being able to make creature images with total HD higher than caster level.

To be clear, I think creating an illusion of a dragon is a perfectly fine use of Major Image, but I don't think it should cause any damage based on the original D20 spells, and the existence of 'Shades', 'Shadow Conjuration' and 'Shadow Evocation'. Or if it does cause damage, the type of illusions created and damage caused should be formalized like in Shades, etc.

Anyhow.. I appreciate the dialogue.

One school of thought, from the 1e days, is that the image spells damage vanishes should the subject realize the damage is illusion before such damage reaches a lethal amount. It follows that the shade and shadow spells have some real damage inflicted due to the manipulation of shadow stuff intermixed with the illusion. So that if the illusion is realized, again before lethal damage accrues, the illusionary portion of the damage is negated and leaves only that damage caused by the actual shadow stuff.