Troll Lord Games

I’m kicking around an idea for a monk character and came up with a question regarding improving his to hit. Other classes will get improved to hit through various weapons etc. What about the monk’s unarmed fighting? I see with the “iron fist” they will eventually be able to hit monsters that require magical weapons to hit, but it doesn’t give a bonus to hit.

Doesn’t this put monks way behind fighters etc not just at lower levels but also at higher levels when the other classes are walking around with +4 slaying weapons and flaming swords?

(If this has been covered before, sorry but my search came up with zip)

This has been a problem for monks for quite some time - many attacks for huge damage, but no scaling hit bonus, so they miss often.

If you use any sort of weapon proficiency/specialization scheme (a la D&D Companion/Master) then Monks should be able to participate with their bare hands as their specialized weapons. This type of system gives all classes some nice stacking hit bonuses, including monks, but continues to favor fighters (as it should). Highly recommended if you don't mind the added complexity.

The monk is a power character class, particularly if he has a strength bonus. The monk in our campaign did miss fiarly often, but when he hit, lights out. In many ways, I think the monk is a better class than the fighter. If you get the monk an Amulet of Mighty Fists... lookout!

~O

Omote wrote:The monk is a power character class, particularly if he has a strength bonus. The monk in our campaign did miss fiarly often, but when he hit, lights out. In many ways, I think the monk is a better class than the fighter. If you get the monk an Amulet of Mighty Fists... lookout!

~O

Agreed, which is why any "specialization" house rule should include all classes, and continue to favor the fighter, IMO. It'll boost everyone's chances to hit, but the fighter should continue to shine in this department. As I tell my players, the tank should hit (to keep baddies interested in him) and should be able to take a hit, but not necessarily do a huge amount of damage - that's where your blasters, monks, rogues, etc., come in.

Doesn't the monks multiple chances to hit from multiple attacks make up for a possibly worse BTH? I think it does. The only other class getting multiple attacks is the ftr & he doesn't have as many other kewl powerz as the monk.

There is also nothing stopping the monk using a magical weapon if he chooses to.

I think those two factors balance the class, the first one being the biggest factor.

My biggest gripe is the monk not being in the list of classes who can disarm, but that is easily fixed.

zarathustra wrote:My biggest gripe is the monk not being in the list of classes who can disarm, but that is easily fixed.

+1003.

~O

Guys, thanks for the replies

Doesn't the monks multiple chances to hit from multiple attacks make up for a possibly worse BTH? I think it does.

I would say yes if it was just the BTH, it is the BTH and the magic weapons that possibly outstrips the usefulness of the monk's unarmed attack.

The only other class getting multiple attacks is the ftr & he doesn't have as many other kewl powerz as the monk.

I agree there, but the hinge pin is that the monk has to hit for the powers to take effect. Also if he misses then he has waisted the ability. Which is what really got me thinking about this little pickle. Hmmmm, I need to check to see if it states the stun/ kill etc must be associated with the hand to hand attack, or if the monk can use it in conjunction with a weapon.

There is also nothing stopping the monk using a magical weapon if he chooses to.

Rgr, except that (at least in my mind) once he starts to use said magic sword he starts to become a slightly weak fighter instead of a cool hard core unique fighter. Also if he uses a weapon he gives up the multiple attacks which removes one of his needed benefits.

I guess it isn't that bad if the weapon is associated with the style of fighter the monk is (punching daggers, qtr staffs, etc or cestus for "western" style monks). However, that again takes away the extra attack, and it is different than how I see the monk (based on all the hand to hand instructors etc that I've seen/trained under while in the military).

I see the monk as being able to face off with even a fully armed fighter, take a few hits from him, but eventually being able to disarm/throw/stun the fighter and then pummel him into the ground. Like I said, with the military guys I worked with, I saw guys that were unarmed but could take a guy with a gun or knife, and unless the knife or gun guy got a luck insta kill shot, have them down and tapping out in seconds. Without something to keep pace with the fighter getting newer and better magic weapons every so often, the monk will be left in the dust.

My biggest gripe is the monk not being in the list of classes who can disarm, but that is easily fixed

Man, I never noticed that. I guess I assumed the monk would be a master at disarming ...

Cestus -- they are weapons, and they are not weapons. That is, they do not deal any damage on their own, but increase the unarmed damage. But, they are listed on the weapon chart....

So, a smart monk finds himself a wizard buddy and makes a pair of cestus of slaughter. +5 to hit, +6 damage (the extra +1 is from the natural ability of the cestus).... and that's not even assuming they're made of some weird material like adamant. Plus, put some haste on them. Yeah.

Monks are badass.

Serl

Thanks for showing me the obvious answer, and it works perfectly! I guess I should have read up on the cestus, I thought they negated the monk's dual attack.

Omote wrote:... If you get the monk an Amulet of Mighty Fists... lookout!

~O

O, Rgr there. I never dug into the misc magic items to see if there was a fix. After reading up on the amulet, it fixes all my issues (now if I'm lucky enough to get one down the road, lookout is an understatement!)

One more thing I looked at, using the offensive fighting and evade styles. Facing off with a big baddie and using evade for a bit (to stay alive, and see if he burns any special attacks he has) then accept the -6 to AC but with a big + to hit on your stun attack then 4 rounds of the baddie being unable to act ... yeah dead baddie.

serleran wrote:Cestus -- they are weapons, and they are not weapons. That is, they do not deal any damage on their own, but increase the unarmed damage.

I never cared for mixing Eastern-style monks into my pseudo-European-style medieval fantasy, but the weaponless fighting style from Hercules: The Legendary Journeys is very much to my liking.

Just Jeff wrote: I never cared for mixing Eastern-style monks into my pseudo-European-style medieval fantasy, but the weaponless fighting style from Hercules: The Legendary Journeys is very much to my liking.

Rgr on not liking the eastern style of monk in the European based area of my world. Though I never got into Hercules show, I love the history of Pankration and other western martial arts.

That is why I like the "flavor" of the monk in the latest C&C PHB.

Lurker wrote:O, Rgr there. I never dug into the misc magic items to see if there was a fix. After reading up on the amulet, it fixes all my issues (now if I'm lucky enough to get one down the road, lookout is an understatement!)

Guarenteed! Our monk obtained a +1 Amulet of Might Fists at 3rd level I think, plus he had a STR of 16 (again, I think). By far, he was the best figther of the group. He didn't care about AC increases, but dealt out damage like crazy. I'll reiterate my thoughts that the monk is the best fighter class in the game, particularly if you play off all of his strengths as spelled out in the PHB and stop thinking about the monk is the classic oriental style martial artists. Monk = devestating.

~O

Rgr on not liking the eastern style of monk in the European based area of my world. Though I never got into Hercules show, I love the history of Pankration and other western martial arts.

I am with you there man. I rewrote the monk class as the Pankratiast class, and Steve told me at GenCon he wanted to print it in Crusader 25. Admittedly, with were both a bit intoxicated, so who knows?

I have wanted to go back and tweak that class based on playtesting and suggestions of others.

Piperdog wrote:I am with you there man. I rewrote the monk class as the Pankratiast class, and Steve told me at GenCon he wanted to print it in Crusader 25. Admittedly, with were both a bit intoxicated, so who knows?

I have wanted to go back and tweak that class based on playtesting and suggestions of others.

Cool !!!!

Its funny, I've been looking back through the posts at your write up and wondering when it would be coming out.

On a similar note, I though you (or someone else that liked pankration) was doing some work on the Tagean area to flesh it out. However, I haven't found the thread. If it was you, is there any word on when or what it will be. If not you, we need to nudge someone a bit.

Yep, that was me, hoss. I fleshed out a bit of Tagea already, especially with my mod The Duplicity of Devils, which is on Steve's desk. Again, he told me a couple of times he was keen on publishing it, but I think he had been drinking a bit when he said that also.

Tagea and the islands around it make for a lot of mythological Greek and Roman flavored fare. I have the beginnings of another adventure for the next con called Escape from the Prison Pits of Carteris (ir some such title) where the players are prisoners on the orc island nation of Onwaltig, in the capital Carteris, where they are forced to fight, both armed and unarmed, in bloody gladitorial combat to entertain the masses. The players have to find a means of escape before their prowess...and luck run out. Anyone who knows how i operate knows there will be some subplots, character hooks, and surprising twists in the story, so while there will be plenty of action, there will be plenty of intrigue as well. Utilizing the Class and a Half option works well here; a fighter supported by monk or pankratiast would be the ultimate pit fighter.

Piperdog wrote:Yep, that was me, hoss. I fleshed out a bit of Tagea already, especially with my mod The Duplicity of Devils, which is on Steve's desk. Again, he told me a couple of times he was keen on publishing it, but I think he had been drinking a bit when he said that also.

Tagea and the islands around it make for a lot of mythological Greek and Roman flavored fare. I have the beginnings of another adventure for the next con called Escape from the Prison Pits of Carteris (ir some such title) where the players are prisoners on the orc island nation of Onwaltig, in the capital Carteris, where they are forced to fight, both armed and unarmed, in bloody gladitorial combat to entertain the masses. The players have to find a means of escape before their prowess...and luck run out. Anyone who knows how i operate knows there will be some subplots, character hooks, and surprising twists in the story, so while there will be plenty of action, there will be plenty of intrigue as well. Utilizing the Class and a Half option works well here; a fighter supported by monk or pankratiast would be the ultimate pit fighter.

COOL!!!!!!!

By the way (speaking of Onwaltig) is there any official word on why the Tagean lost the fights for the islands to the north of Onwaltig? I know the Orcs are well armed and lead, but a well lead "Greek" army should be able to win. I have been building the "recent" history of the area and figured it was a Peloponnesian/Syracuse debacle. (I've even been using the names of the leaders -Nicias, Alcibiades, and Lamachus - along with other historic Greeks in the back stories for my characters).

Lurker wrote:Rgr on not liking the eastern style of monk in the European based area of my world. Though I never got into Hercules show, I love the history of Pankration and other western martial arts.

The heroes made extensive use of cestus in Hercules, usually against foes armed with more traditional weapons. It made for great atmosphere.

That is why I like the "flavor" of the monk in the latest C&C PHB.

The verbiage and illustration are good, but some of the class abilities still invoke kung fu theater.

Let me take the "devil's advocate" stance I love so much (:roll:) and say why I don't think there's a problem with the monk.

Seriously though, I don't have a problem with them. But I've never classified them as "front line fighters." While the fighter, knight, or paladin are standing toe-to-toe with the big, bad beastie the monk, ranger, and barbarian are taking out ancillary targets or providing support to the main (heavy armor wearing) warriors. This is by no means a way to slight these latter classes but I see these types taking out the opposing wizard while the heavy-armor wearers slog through the masses of baddies. I see them more as specialized combatants who lend their expert touch when needed, but otherwise support the neavy hitters when necessary.

Now, I'm not saying my view is the only possible scenario. I'm just giving my two cents why I don't have an issue with them. I once ran a C&C game with a cleric, a monk, a ranger, and a wizard. So, it was interesting seeing the ranger and monk handle the "first-tier" fighter spot. It definitely can be done and I don't want to be misunderstood, by thinking I'm saying it can't.

But looking over at the class, I see them getting a lot of bonuses. So many, that I feel that if they start becoming equal to fighters in their ability to hit, I feel it takes away from the fighter the advantage of being a fighter. They don't have a ton going for them as it is. Make other classes approach their combat versility, then they become a less attractive (and viable?) choice.

I look at a 9th level monk. I like 9th level because, to me, it's the end of the low leve and the beginning of the high. So, it's a good spot for comparisons, in my opinion. So, looking at the 9th level monk, it's a very interesting scene.

d12 hit die? Check.
Saving throw bonuses to disease, poison, paralysis, polymorph, petrification, death magic, confusion, charm, fear, and mind-affecting spells? Check.
The ability to stun foes? Check.
Deflect missiles? Check.
Improved healing over the other classes? Check.
Fall 30' without taking damage? Check.
Hit magicially fortified creatures? Check.

At 9th level, they're hitting AC 18 (19 or 20, with a decent strength) quite consistantly. Give them a Amulet of Mighty Fists, as others suggested, to counteract the fighter's +2 longsword, and you shouldn't need to toy with anything.

I feel that if you were to improve upon their ability to strike at foes - an an inherent class ability - to near the level of a fighter, then you start infringing on the fighters' main area of expertise.