Troll Lord Games

I have the hardcovers of the PHB, M&T, and the CKG. As I understand it, the first two were printed and bound by a third party, while the CKG was done in house. I can see the difference. The print quality of the CKG isn't stellar, though to be honest, that doesn't bother me much. What does concern me in the binding. The pages of the PHB and M&T are sewn into the spine, and look as though they'll hold up nicely. However, as far as I can tell, the CKG only uses glue to hold the pages in. I've only owned it a few months, and haven't even used it very much, but it's already showing some minor problems. The crease where the back cover turns into the spine is loose, making it "spineless" on the back side, and as a result, the last few pages are coming loose from the glue. They are still stuck to each other and the back cover, so they haven't fallen out yet, but it looks like only a matter of time. As a result, I'm a bit concerned about how it will hold up over the long run, and wondered if anyone else is experiencing anything similar, or if this is just a bit of bad luck on my part. I'm also asking because I'm interested in buying M&ToA, and wondering if I should go for the hardcover, but if it was also done in house, and is bound similarly to the CKG, I may save a few bucks and just buy the softcover.

Oh, I try to balance concerns and criticisms with positive comments, so:
1) The content of the CKG absolutely rocks.
2) I love the matte cover, better than the glossy ones.
3) I'm really glad that the Trolls worked so hard with you guys to fix errata for the hardcover printing.

Thanks in advance, as always.

Interesting. I hadn't even noticed until you pointed this out. But, indeed, the CKG, M&ToA, and Of Gods & Monsters are all glued into the spine, rather than sewn into a strip of fabric.

My first instinct was to agree that this is not a "quality" way to bind a hard cover book. However, I looked at my original copy of the AD&D DMG (1979 printing) and noted that it, too, is glued into the spine, rather than sewn. As were many of the other original books. So, this reveals that it might be debatable whether one method is of "better quality" than the other. I think it comes down to the quality of the glue and technique used, since my 32-year-old DMG shows no signs coming apart at the spine or losing pages (and that thing's been through hell and back more than once).

Gut response, then, is the quality of materials and methods of construction may be sub-par, rather than method of binding, if your book is already coming apart. I trust the good Trolls will take this feedback to heart, and determine if a better technique or better quality materials can be used in future printings. If my DMG can survive 32 years of rugged use, multiple house moves, etc., then I believe our C&C books should last more than a few months of moderate usage.

Thanks, Redwullf - that makes me feel better. Hopefully, my CKG hold up, and I'll probably still give the other / newer hardcovers a try. (I do loves me some hardcover game books! )

kreider204 wrote:Thanks, Redwullf - that makes me feel better. Hopefully, my CKG hold up, and I'll probably still give the other / newer hardcovers a try. (I do loves me some hardcover game books! )

Ditto. I *always* prefer the hard cover books. My beloved AD&D DMG is evidence that they can last a "life time" if properly treated. However, I'm concerned about your findings with the CKG, and will be keeping a close eye on that book for "breakage."

redwullf wrote:Interesting. I hadn't even noticed until you pointed this out. But, indeed, the CKG, M&ToA, and Of Gods & Monsters are all glued into the spine, rather than sewn into a strip of fabric.

Most hard-covers yes use glue to bind the pages in. But, the cloth is nothing more than a binding agent to help re-enforce the glue, like rebar helps concrete be stronger. What differs it the method of adding the pages.

By your description, it seems as though individual pages are directly glued into the glue. Where as other hard-bound books saddle stitch portions of the pages then glue those into the book. The saddle stitch/glued is superior to the individual method as it makes it difficult for the pages to become loose or for the spine to break. It is much more robust.

My CKG, which I received very early on in the process is still in top-notch condition. With many uses and reads, and travelling to multiple conventions so far, the CKG is standing the durability test here. All is good to report.

~O

I got one of the first Hardcover CKGs that was made as a prototype before they had their technique down. It's been dropped more than once and read cover to cover once while being used as a reference a few times as well. So far, it's showing no sign of falling apart or even excessive wear. I think it's made pretty much the same way as the "final" versions of the CKG, but I'd have to ask Steve about that. Anyhow, I don't use it "all the time" but it *seems* like it will hold up well enough.

I don't think it will be an issue right away. If there's been no reports of pages falling out right away (like the old Unearthed Arcanas did), we'll have to wait for the glue to dry out some and see if it gets brittle. I don't suspect that'll be for a long time, though. I'm thumbing through mine a great deal, and I don't have any reason to believe moderate use will cause pages to fall out. I think true sewn bindings are pretty much a dinosaur now anyway, taking far too long to do.

Having one of the early "sale ready" CKGs, mine is in near mint condition despite having been read through several times and referenced many times more.

Yeah, mine was one of the earliest to ship out and I haven't had any such problems with it yet. Mine's still in good shape.

Lord Dynel wrote:...we'll have to wait for the glue to dry out some and see if it gets brittle.

The glue used in Redwullf's 9th print AD&D DMG (Efreet cover) is of a different chemical formula than the glue used in today's hardcovers. The bookbinding glue used in today's books tends to be ph neutral and consists of polyvinyl acetate (PVA). The benefit of the change in glue is that the new book's glue will not turn brittle, unlike older books (e.g. Champions 4th Edition hardcover). The older glue was more like Elmer's glue in that its primary component was animal proteins. When it dried, it was inflexible and would eventually become brittle through the natural process of the proteins in the glue breaking down or interacting with the acids in the paper.

So we'll be waiting a long time for the glue in the CKG to become brittle, as you already noted. In the case of the OP's problem with his copy of the CKG, there are a couple different ways for the binding to fail.


--Pete Jermann, Reflections on Book Structures, Part 2

The OP should contact the Trolls and see if he can get his book swapped out since he's unhappy with the binding. A bad binding is a quality control issue, however it's a very difficult one to detect since quality control methods do not test every single item, but a representative sample.

Traveller wrote: The OP should contact the Trolls and see if he can get his book swapped out since he's unhappy with the binding. A bad binding is a quality control issue, however it's a very difficult one to detect since quality control methods do not test every single item, but a representative sample.

Great info, thank you!

At the moment, I wouldn't say "unhappy." If it stays like it is, it's just fine, and certainly not enough of a problem to require a replacement. If it gets worse, I'll definitely contact the Trolls.

Thanks again!

I ordered 2 CKGs...seperate order times...and both show no binding
problems at all even though I'm continually paging through both.
One does have a few minor bumps and mini-creases on a few pages,
but nothing serious.