converting unusual magic resistance stat

[kreider204]

I'm converting one on the dreaded non-OGL monsters for my own personal use (i.e., I won't be posting it anywhere). This particular beastie is a 6 HD creature. Under magic resistance, it says that it saves as a 12th level fighter, with a +2 to boot. Since HD / level are typically added to saves, I'm thinking that my conversion should simply say something like "save as 14 HD creature." Does that sound about right?

EDIT: Or maybe just give it a bit of the usual magic resistance - say, SR 6 or so?

[Go0gleplex]

Saving throw and Spell Resistance are two different mechanics. Argueably, the 14HD save is going to be truer to the original beastie intent and make it a tougher opponent for spell casters, though this may suffer depending if the creature's saves are Mental or Physical. (base 12 vs base 18)

SR might be a bit simpler to adjudicate given that one would need to worry about only a single number vs modifiers and such, but, if used, I think I would rank it somewhere between 9 and 11.

[kreider204]

Thanks. Ya, I knew that the SR isn't the same mechanically, but I was thinking it'd just be simpler. I'll kick it around a bit ...

[Omote]

It might be simpler to just give the monster a bonus that states it receives a +2 bonus to any P saving throws (or to M, or to ALL).

~O

[Go0gleplex]

It might be simpler to just give the monster a bonus that states it receives a +2 bonus to any P saving throws (or to M, or to ALL).

~O

Well sure, make it simple why don't you.

[kreider204]

It might be simpler to just give the monster a bonus that states it receives a +2 bonus to any P saving throws (or to M, or to ALL).

~O

Does that really capture the whole resistance? Again, it's a 6 HD creature that saves as a 12th level fighter, with an additional +2 to saves - your suggestion seems to leave out the 12th level fighter part, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible ... ).

[Go0gleplex]

It might be simpler to just give the monster a bonus that states it receives a +2 bonus to any P saving throws (or to M, or to ALL).

~O

Does that really capture the whole resistance? Again, it's a 6 HD creature that saves as a 12th level fighter, with an additional +2 to saves - your suggestion seems to leave out the 12th level fighter part, unless I'm missing something (entirely possible ... ).

Monsters don't normally have class levels (which I'm sure you know). it's all HD based. So the 12th lvl fighter really is meaningless in the grand scope of things. Since the creature is only a 6HD, then it would simply get a +6 to saves, bringing it up to the 12HD equivalent. Adding in the additional +2 boost gives it a +8 to saves.

[kreider204]

Monsters don't normally have class levels (which I'm sure you know). it's all HD based. So the 12th lvl fighter really is meaningless in the grand scope of things. Since the creature is only a 6HD, then it would simply get a +6 to saves, bringing it up to the 12HD equivalent. Adding in the additional +2 boost gives it a +8 to saves.

Okay that's what I thought -- +8 rather than +2. Good thinking, all - thanks again!

[Rikitiki]

...but wouldn't that "+8 to saves" only apply to Physical saves,
since "P" would be prime for a fighter: the thing it is equivalent to?
Or would Physical saves = HD+8 .vs 12 (prime),
and
Mental saves = HD .vs 18 (non-prime)


...or have I got this all wrongo? Please advise...thanks!

[Go0gleplex]

...but wouldn't that "+8 to saves" only apply to Physical saves,
since "P" would be prime for a fighter: the thing it is equivalent to?
Or would Physical saves = HD+8 .vs 12 (prime),
and
Mental saves = HD .vs 18 (non-prime)


...or have I got this all wrongo? Please advise...thanks!

No. It would only apply if the magic spell/ spell effect called for the save to be made against a P attribute. Otherwise it would typically apply to M base saves since those typically deal with magic. Class becomes a moot point with saves since C&C uses Physical (P) or Mental (M) bases for the saves and not class such as 3.5e does. The +8 is simulating a situational increase in the creature's HD vs magic...not an across the board bonus.

[Rikitiki]

Thanks, GoOg, I'll try to keep that in the brain-box.

[Relaxo]

by my reading, it should have normal saves (probably P) +6 for it's HD, except against magic, which would be +8, and maybe also primary, only for magic.
So in total, I'd go:
Saves P, M+P vs. magic only
all +6 except vs. magic only +8, or maybe +14.
(this is more complex than C&C usually goes, but I think it's simple enough, and maybe truer to the original?

Or consider simply giving it SR .... 7? (I'm taking half the bonus, sort of arbitrarily, to be frank) (( I like my first suggestion better))

[Go0gleplex]

by my reading, it should have normal saves (probably P) +6 for it's HD, except against magic, which would be +8, and maybe also primary, only for magic.
So in total, I'd go:
Saves P, M+P vs. magic only
all +6 except vs. magic only +8, or maybe +14.
(this is more complex than C&C usually goes, but I think it's simple enough, and maybe truer to the original?

Or consider simply giving it SR .... 7? (I'm taking half the bonus, sort of arbitrarily, to be frank) (( I like my first suggestion better))

But if you read the OP post it saves as a 12HD creature only against magic...so it gets no additional bonuses, saving as a 6HD critter for other saves. The additional +2 bonus in addition to the boost to 12HD might apply if it is an across the board bonus, though this was not clarified by the OP.

Also not identified by the OP were the attribute scores of the critter, so assuming that it should be a P save merely because of the fighter class designation could be a mistake.

[kreider204]

The creature in question is on page 28 of the (1st ed. AD&D) MM, upper right corner. I was planning on assigning P for saves.

As complicated as this is, I'm definitely leaning toward some SP - it might not be as faithful to the original stats, but I think it'll be simpler during play.

[Lord Dynel]

The creature in question is on page 28 of the (1st ed. AD&D) MM, upper right corner. I was planning on assigning P for saves.

As complicated as this is, I'm definitely leaning toward some SP - it might not be as faithful to the original stats, but I think it'll be simpler during play.

I'm not seeing the difficulty, kreider, but I can be a dunce sometimes.

I'd drop the +2, and just make them P saves with a +12 modifier to their saves. M and P, just like all creatures do (add their hit dice, even those these are "virtual" HD).

[serleran]

In both games, spell/magic resistance and saves are two entirely different things. SR works fine... for spells. But, there are times you need to save when no spell is used at all, and likewise, some things (even spells) do not allow SR. The two must be considered independent.

However, if one looks over the fighter progression from the source system, it becomes apparent there is a pattern to class-based saving throws, with fighters, effectively, getting +1/2 levels (its not quite exact). So, a 12th level fighter gets +6 to everything. in C&C, this implies everything is Prime. In the source, monsters do not add additional HD to what they already get... using whatever is best for the save needed but in C&C, they would get HD added. Since it appears to be a 6 HD monster, its getting the source material already added to its benefit, so all that's left is to give it the +2 adjustment.

So, I'd treat it as a 6 HD monster with P+M Prime, with a +2 further adjustment. So it saves a little better than normal. It keeps the original intent.

[kreider204]

So, I'd treat it as a 6 HD monster with P+M Prime, with a +2 further adjustment. So it saves a little better than normal. It keeps the original intent.

Elegant - thanks!

[Relaxo]

But if you read the OP post it saves as a 12HD creature only against magic...so it gets no additional bonuses, saving as a 6HD critter for other saves. The additional +2 bonus in addition to the boost to 12HD might apply if it is an across the board bonus, though this was not clarified by the OP.

Also not identified by the OP were the attribute scores of the critter, so assuming that it should be a P save merely because of the fighter class designation could be a mistake.

yeah, exactly.