Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

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Relaxo
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Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Relaxo »

This came up in the play by post I'm running, so I have the luxury of asking before proceeding...

Let's say the party is fighting a high HD orc priest and his unholy mutant cthuloid monsters --The orc is under the spell Hold Person, but the following round, he's rescued by another orc and their crocodile/giraffe hybrid. (it's a giraffe with crocodile mouth, and long spiked tail (and cathulu-monster-eque eyes all over its skin instead of spots).
This thing picks up the Held chieftain and rises to its full height ready to run away. The party has a chance to act before it does run off.

So orc guy is out of melee range, but for missile attacks and Spiritual Weapon... what to hit bonus do you suggest? if he was Held, and not moving on the ground, I'd say hit automatically (though there is a berzerk fire-breathing elephant with it's front legs tied together jumping around, so that qualifies a "battle chaos" and I suppose that means everyone should roll to hit...) But I figure being Held makes you helpless, so automatic hits, before the rescue attempt.

I think using the giraffe's AC would be too generous since the giraffe monster isn't necessarily actively defending the orc, but it's massive mouth is some cover, and it's alive and well, ready to run off.
(certainly the orc would lose any Dex AC bonus, if C&C had such, because of Hold Person, or 3e probably has a rule for it).
I plan on using the orc's real AC and just adding bonus to the party's To Hit (rather than AC penalty to the orc... it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, but still it seems easier to wrap our collective head around).

The cleric's player suggested +10 to hit since the orc is held and helpless. Off hand I feel like that might be too high. The monster is moving and whatnot, and nothing stays still waiting it's turn in initiative.

:?: SO, long question short: What bonus (if any) would you give the player's to hit the Magically held orc, held aloft in the tall monster's mouth? :?:
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koralas
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by koralas »

If it were me, none. As you state, the priest is not motionless at this point, it is being carried away moving in a most likely random pattern, and as you mention, the mouth is covering a good part of the body. Also, to me, auto-hits to held/helpless opponents only ever apply to melee attacks. Ranged attacks that call for them will always require a to-hit roll, perhaps with a bonus, but never auto-hit when shooting at something other than a short range broadside of a barn type object. Way to many factors like wind, stress, fatigue, etc., and if you can always hit a stationary target, archery contests would be a draw.

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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Omote »

koralas wrote:If it were me, none. As you state, the priest is not motionless at this point, it is being carried away moving in a most likely random pattern, and as you mention, the mouth is covering a good part of the body. Also, to me, auto-hits to held/helpless opponents only ever apply to melee attacks. Ranged attacks that call for them will always require a to-hit roll, perhaps with a bonus, but never auto-hit when shooting at something other than a short range broadside of a barn type object. Way to many factors like wind, stress, fatigue, etc., and if you can always hit a stationary target, archery contests would be a draw.
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Rikitiki »

I agree with the above; no bonus. However, if some enterprising character thinks to send a Spirtual Hammer or other blunt-force-trauma weapon blow
to the underside of that croc mouth which is holding said Orc, I'd be
inclined to maybe give a slight bonus to the damage the Orc will sustain as
the croc's lower jaw gets forced closed upon him by the blow.
(I mean, hell, if I was in that battle that's what I'd try to do)

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Relaxo
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Relaxo »

Good point about the archery contests....
It's Spiritual Weapon specifically, though, which (if I'm reading correctly) attacks the same as the Caster in melee, so I figure it's just like melee for that.

thanks all!
Keep it coming!

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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by alcyone »

koralas wrote: Also, to me, auto-hits to held/helpless opponents only ever apply to melee attacks.
I'm the cleric in question, and I probably wouldn't give out the +10 either as a CK. However, just wanted to respond to the above; spiritual weapon is a melee attack; the weapon uses the cleric's BtH and strength bonus and attacks autonomously while floating next to the foe in question, it only needs to be directed when changing foes.

If he wasn't being held, he'd be resisting actively, but he's not at the moment, so I'd think that difference would account for SOME bonus, especially as the weapon is really "sticking" with him.
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DeadReborn
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by DeadReborn »

It doesn't matter, cause in the end, Grundle and his pissant little lackeys are GOING DOWN!! :twisted:
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Which means...I AM A LEVEL TEN WIZARD!"-SpongeBob SquarePants

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Relaxo
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Relaxo »

Oh I didn't realize that was you!
Yes, Vinny your fireball should help the cause.

I still think +6 is probably about right. like you said, Aergraith, he's not / can't DO anything and the monster ins't like, an expert of defense or anything. Just roll a 20 and make our lives easy!
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DeadReborn
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by DeadReborn »

Sorry Bill, I couldn't help myself. :)
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by koralas »

Aergraith wrote:If he wasn't being held, he'd be resisting actively, but he's not at the moment, so I'd think that difference would account for SOME bonus, especially as the weapon is really "sticking" with him.
Ok, Spirit Weapon is a melee attack, however, the target of the attack is no longer motionless, thus you cannot place your blow with precision. That the target is in the throws of a hold spell at this point doesn't matter it is now a body in motion. Correct that there is no active defense, thus no shield bonus, no dex bonus, but full armor applies. The spirit weapon also is not like a dancing sword, it is something that must be telepathically controlled by the cleric, so line of site can be at issue, as well as a raging dracophant that may just cause a distraction...

Rikitiki, I would rule that if the character has the spirit weapon swing at the underside of the crock snout, roll to hit the crockaraffe (but this is a called shot to the head don't forget), if successful, deal damage to the crockaraffe, then deal 1/2 bite damage of the croc, to a max of the damage of the blow from the spirit weapon, to the priest in it's mouth. If hitting from above, 1/4 bite damage (or 1/2 damage from the weapon max), and make a physical save or drop the priest, of course that may incur additional damage from falling, depending how tall it is... and since the hold spell has the orc, I would deal an extra 50% fall damage since it cannot try to break it's fall in any way. Of course the character is reading this forum, so I probably just gave some fun ideas, oops!!! ;)

Of course, this all assumes it is still within the 50' range of the spell...

This all said, take my advice with a grain of salt, do what makes the game fun with what sounds like a great cinematic fight scene.

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Relaxo
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Relaxo »

Indeed, fun cinema battle chaos always trumps!
the thing is only 18 feet tall, so it's totally in range.

what other crazy ideas can you give my players so I have an headache adjudicating them, LOL?
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Re: Crazy rules question: unusual to hit bonus?

Post by Rikitiki »

Hows about this, Relaxo:

Maybe a "Hold Portal" spell on the croc's mouth? If possible,
means the orc is trapped and the croc can't bite....Mwah-Hah-Ha!

Or, if I were a player with a whip or lasso, I'd try to lasso that
croc's mouth, thereby allowing me to pull, hang-from the whip
or rope and, in the process force the croc to bite-down on the orc.
:twisted:

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