Troll Lord Games

Do Elves have souls in your game world? How about the other Demi-Humans (Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes) or the Humanoids (Orcs, Goblins, etc.)? What exactly is a soul in the game, anyway?

This thread is inspired by a conversation regarding Zombi Bottles. I indicated that Elves cannot be affected by the soul-stealing Zombi Bottle, because they have no souls to steal.

As a CK I assume that Elves and Humanoids are soulless, while Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings have souls. By “soul” I mean a spiritual entity that allows one to have a true personal connection to spiritual powers, and allows one to have a true conscience. It also allows one to have an afterlife. I therefore present both Elves and Orcs as unable to feel guilt or shame, and to be utterly unconcerned about whether their actions will save or damn them.

Elves have a strong sense of aesthetics, which comes off as a commitment to “good”, but what they really believe in is beauty. To them, beautiful people and things are valuable and "good", while ugly people and things are worthless and "evil". Elves (as I present them) are self-indulgent hedonists that consider religious worship to be foolish. They can never be Clerics or Paladins, although I allow them to practice natural magic and become Druids.

The entire Orcish race is composed of irredeemable sociopaths who only experience joy when they are breaking or hurting something. Orcish religion is either just vile superstition, or the fearful propitiation of demons and devils. There's no moral component to it, because Orcs are incapable of morality. You can't change Orcs, and the world is unquestionably better off without them.

How about you. Which races have souls, and which don't?

In my game all sentients on the Prime Material plane(s) have "souls". And thus, can be raised from the dead.

I'll confess, Clavis, that I haven't given it much thought ... at least yet. I like your descriptions of Elves a lot, and of orcs (maybe a bit less). I guess any answer to your question must be very campaign specific and must also involve difficult questions of ontology.

in my current homebrew, my elves are religion-less (like yours), although they believe in a creator of the world/universe (a la Tolkien). I don't know if they have souls or not. Probably not.

My dwarves are much less like humans and more like norse-style dwarves (greedy, grasping, cruel); I guess if pushed I'd say they also have no souls.

I have made, for flavor reasons, goblins into a PC race; PCs can elect to be a goblin from the 'civilized' goblins who have been in servitude to humans for millenia. There are also wild goblins who are more bestial and savage, if biologically similar. I guess my goblins probably have souls.

As for halflings, I'm playing them more as genetic variants of humans instead of a truly different race; as such, they must have souls.

I've dropped gnomes from my world, but I've added a form of intelligent fey (who are definitely soulless).

As for monsters/orcs, I haven't decided.

clavis123 wrote:Elves have a strong sense of aesthetics, which comes off as a commitment to “good”, but what they really believe in is beauty. To them, beautiful people and things are valuable and "good", while ugly people and things are worthless and "evil". Elves (as I present them) are self-indulgent hedonists that consider religious worship to be foolish.

Heh, I think I know some humans that fall under the above description.

In my campaign world, elves and all other demi-humans have souls. Monsters don't.

I too haven't really thought about this - though, given the way certain spells and magic items work, I probably should ...

I think I would have to allow any PC to be resurrected or reincarnated via the appropriate spells - otherwise, it would be rather unfair - so I guess that means souls for all the PC races.

On the other hand, I recall some FRPG - I don't remember if it was AD&D or MERP - that made a distinction between souls (humans only) and spirits (other PC races), but I'll be damned if I can recall the distinction.

The elves in World of Phantasie all have souls; their circle of life-death-life begins as blooms of the Worldtree, which are then given form in the Prime Material Plane. Upon their deaths, in most cases, elvish souls return to the Worldtree, where they spend eternity with their brethren.

I have not delved (no pun intended) quite as deeply into the dwarves of Phantasie, but I would venture to say that they most likely they have souls as well... (at least, unless I can come up with a really good reason otherwise. ) For that matter, that goes for most of my deminhuman races.

If nothing else, I tend to have demihumans with souls because it creates a good theme for otherracial undead, or legends of jewels/weapons/items with souls trapped within.

In my games, I assume that most sentient creatures have souls (even humanoids). Though, it usually only comes into play when a PC, or an important NPC, dies. I know I used to not allow them to be raised, but I don't know when I "officially" allowed them to be raised like the other races. It wasn't some conscious decision, though. I think this was another one of those balancing efforts from back in the day - if your elf dies, you got to reroll, period. Maybe, I don't know.

I think this would depend on the setting. Which means it could very depending on the game you are playing.

Frikkin' Elf-souls, how do they work?

On shoes!

I tend towards the ideal that if a race has a specific divine pantheon (assuming that most members of the race will worship/pray to at least one of those deities), then they have souls. OG&M covers all the standard races, as well as a variety of humanoids. I've also worked out of AD&D 2/e Monster Mythology when I've needed ideas along these lines as well.

In old school AD&D, elves had spirits which never actually went to the outer planes (heaven, hell, etc.) but sort of merged with the world to be reborn later.

Humans, Halflings, Dwarves and Gnomes had actual souls.

Orcs and other humanoids had spirits (but for some reason, they could end up in hell).

According to medieval Catholic theologians, elves were soulless creatures who may be, by turns, benign or malicious but since they were soulless they could never be trusted or saved. When they died, they ceased to exist or went to hell (since they were unsaved). And yes... they actually discussed such things in the learned councils of the Roman Church.

A more modern take on the same issue can be gleaned from a correspondence between Loren Wiseman of Traveller fame and his local deacon where Loren asked if aliens did exist, could they become Catholics. Apparently, according to Loren, the question got bandied about and was eventually posed as a hypothetical to Pope John Paul II who responded that if said alien could comprehend the concept of good and evil and was capable of making moral choices then yes, he/she/it could become a Catholic and would benefit from the Holy Ghost. The pope further inquired "Why do you ask?"

Now, I am not a Catholic theologian - or even a Christian, let alone a Catholic - but it seems to me that the DM has to decide if elves (and orcs, goblins, etc.) can choose between good and evil. If they can, then they would have souls. But if there is no such thing as a good Drow or an evil Grey Elf then no, they don't.

In Islamic thought, the elves are a form of Djinn - spirits who neither sided with Al'lah or Shaitan in their fight over the universe. Since the struggle between Jannah and Jahannam (heaven and hell) is still very much in doubt and Al'lah requires an army (the Muslims) to fight for him any reinforcements in the form of converts are welcome. The elves who do not choose a side will reincarnate endlessly until they do at which point they will arrive in either Jannah or Jahannam when they die (ditto for other humanoids and demi-humans).

Judaism has no struggle between G-d and Satan. The Satan is an angel named Haleyl (Lucifer in Latin) who is doing exactly what G-d created him to do which is test the resolve of humanity in order to give man the chance to do good and merit reward. The "little people" of Jewish folklore are soulless but they do have a ruach (spirit) much like an animal and can experience love, anger, hatred, etc. They neither merit reward nor earn punishment since they cannot really make moral choices, simply react based on instinct. Elves are good because that's just their nature, Drow are evil because it is their nature. Substitute "drawn to beauty" or "drawn to darkness" or whatever your cosmology requires. At death, they simply return to the earth. They will not experience the resurrection in the Messianic era unless their particular, individual presence is required for the happiness of one of the tzaddikim (righteous souls) who will be the sole inhabitants of the world at that time.

In Vedic thought, all living things go through birth - death - rebirth until they achieve enough enlightenment and good karma to escape the cycle into Nirvana (oblivion). Elves are no exception.

According to Roger Moore in his "Point of View" articles, elves do have free will but where the souls of men ultimately belong to G-d and are destined to be judged by Him the elves are irrevocably tied to the material world - a force of nature, if you will and while they might sojourn in one or another of the outer planes for a while they will inevitably be drawn back to the material world and reincarnated.

Another take can be borrowed from Warhammer 40k where the Eldar (space elves) became so hedonistic that they actually created a chaos "god" of pleasure who will devour their spirits upon their death unless they are trapped/protected in "spirit stones" immediately upon physical death. Eldar wear such stones as jewelry for just such a purpose. The Dark Eldar (evil space elves) simply offer "She Who Thirsts" the souls/spirits of other beings to keep her off their backs while they live and don't seem to care too much what happens when they die.

In the 40k universe, eldar who adopt primeval lifestyles (wild elves or wood elves) seem to drop off the radar of the evil chaos "god" since they don't generate enough emotional 'oomph' given their bucolic lifestyles.

As always, the real answer is whatever works best for your campaign and the usual disclaimers apply (void where prohibited by natural or supernatural law, your mileage may vary, see your local DM for details, these claims not endorsed by the FDA...)