Troll Lord Games

Would you say that C&C is the simplest among the many d&d editions and retro clones?

Hmm, that's a toughie. I'm not sure "simple" and "streamlined" always go together, so there might be a couple of different questions here. A couple of thoughts that strike me right off the top of my head:

- The SIEGE engine mechanic is certainly more streamlined that rolling against a bunch of charts, but it's not always simpler for new players to wrap their heads around.

- There are certainly clones that are simpler and more streamlined in terms of the number of races and classes available, including the whole "race-as-class" thing, which one could argue is the simplest.

Interesting question!

It's kind of like asking a mother if she thinks her baby is ugly.

There's no absolute answer to such a broad question, but here's some of my thoughts.

When I first started using it, I thought of it as 3.5 without prestige classes, feats, or skills, and in that regard I found it much simpler than 3.5.
As I used it more, I began to regard it as a simple, and certainly streamlined (no segments!) AD&D.
I think it's a much different game than 4e and doesn't compare easily.
Against low-level B/X D&D, I don't think C&C is as simple.
Against Rules Cyclopedia (or Dark Dungeons) using all of the optional rules, C&C is simple, and I think it compares favorably now that the CKG is there to fill in some gaps.
Compared to OD&D, I think C&C is definitely more streamlined, but not simpler.
Compared to Swords & Wizardry, C&C is about as streamlined but not simpler.

In some areas, simplicity can go either way though. If you think descending AC is a pain, C&C is simpler than a system with that. If you think different ways to resolve things instead of the mostly unified SIEGE system is a pain, C&C will seem simpler.

Taken as a combination, I'd guess that Labyrinth Lord and Basic Fantasy Role Playing are roughly equal in simplicity, the latter is probably a bit more streamlined - with its ascending d20-esque AC system.

Ozreth wrote:Would you say that C&C is the simplest among the many d&d editions and retro clones?

I don't know if it is the absolute simplest, but I enjoy it the most of the ones I have tried so far.

I'd say it's the most elegant of the retros I've looked at. Perhaps that equates to your "streamlined."

It entirely depends on what you consider essential to D&D.

For example, I could make a variant of D&D with just one ability score (Skill) and one tracked number (Life Points) and if all I considered D&D to be was rolling dice and killing monsters, it might be the most streamlined version for me.

On the other hand, if I considered detailed planar rules or feats to be part of D&D, then even C&C would be lacking.

Certainly any version of D&D can be customized to be more simple/complex, and I love C&C as a starting point, but I don't think the question has an actual answer.

Out of all of the editions of D&D, including the retro style systems, C&C is the most simple. No charts to consult. You always have to match or surpass a target number. You never have to look up target numbers in the book as every encounter comes with the target numbers already supplied (HD). All of the rules in C&C work around the same concepts, either you need to roll a d20 and add your modifiers to match or surpass AC, you need to make a siege engine check, or you need to roll X amount of dice and add them together for a number. That's it. C&C is the most elegant, and the most simple system.

~O

Like the folks up-thread, I'm not sure I'd say it's "simplest", in part because I've never played most of the modern D&D-like games. (Not much D&D after my 1st edition AD&D days until some 3.5 games a few years back.)

But for me, C&C hits the sweet spot - streamlined and simple where I want it, with bit of crunch in places, and the ability to bolt on whatever I want.

That said, I keep hearing good things about Swords and Wizardry, so I'll be checking that out soonish. I doubt it will displace C&C as my game-of-choice, though.

The answer is "yes".

Jeff nailed it, it's the most elegant. But I personally think its the most streamlined and simplest. But even more than that, it truly is the rosetta stone of RPGs. Liked AD&D? You'll fit right in. Familiar with 3.5? You'll know exactly what you're doing. It's great to bring people who don't like the same edition together in something that still feels like what they're used to. It truly took the best of both worlds and made a great RPG.

The honor of "simplest, most streamlined" goes to the Microlite games

With that said, I prefer C&C for giving people just enough of everything to inspire their imaginations

Yeah, "Elegant" is the word I like best for C&C.
For two words (adjectives, that is), I'd say "Elegant yet robust"
sort of a thread drift.
The simplest might be TWERPS, but it's reduced to a silly point.