Troll Lord Games

So...a 5th printing, eh? OMG, this game's already into a 5th printing??!!

Seriously, though....what can we expect from a 5th printing? The thread title was me being a bit facetious, but I am curious as to what might be different in the 5th printing. Will there be big changes to the game again? I say "again," because I consider the barbarian a pretty big change. The monk not so much, but the illusion spells were kind of a big deal. I wonder, with a new printing coming, what's needed with a new printing. Clairifications and errata would be great, but otherwise I am pretty pleased with this printing of the PHB.

For those who don't know, a 5th printing is mentioned on the Kickstart page and mentioned in comments on the Castles & Crusades Facebook page.

I'm pretty jazzed myself. If TLG can improve on the 4th printing (which is pretty awesome as is), that would be cool. The first step it seems TLG is doing for a 5th printing of the PHB is changing the cover. While the green cover is cool, I think the stellar Pete Bradley artwork just doesn't invoke that C&C flavor in my mind. The current cover is cool, but needs to be more epic, and be more... more... D&Dish (no offense intended to PB or TLG).

There was a rough draft of what may be the new cover floating around the internets. While it was just a sketch, it did look utterly awesome (the heroes battling a Terrasque like monster as it runs through a cityscape) . I hope TLG goes with something like this or a piece that invokes the name CASTLES & CRUSADES. Like, a picture with knights, warriors, castles and probably a dragon somewhere.

~O

Not sure about this. 5 versions/printings in 6 years is a bit excessive for an RPG.

Arduin wrote:Not sure about this. 5 versions/printings in 6 years is a bit excessive for an RPG.

That's my knee-jerk reaction as well. I'm always optimistic about new product, but leery over a new PHB. My wariness was a bit misplaced, I will admit, once I possessed the final product in my hand. But hearing of a new print when I've bought a half-dozen (4th print) PHBs leaves me a little wary this time, too, unfortunately. That's a selfish concern, of course - my main quandry would be what needs change?

If they can match the improvements (despite some of the illusionists spells...especially the healing ones ) from the 4th printing, then I will happily admit misplaced concern. Having some idea what changes are coming (if any) would be nice, though.

Lord Dynel wrote:If they can match the improvements (despite some of the illusionists spells...especially the healing ones ) from the 4th printing, then I will happily admit misplaced concern. Having some idea what changes are coming (if any) would be nice, though.

Rather than a new PHB, maybe an "Unearthed Arcana" type of book would be a better idea. I never dislike improvements, it's just that I'd like a stable set of "core" rules...

I fail to see where the rules are unstable.

Each printing has had some minor tweaks. I fail to see a couple classes changed and new spells added as rules changes.

Classes, monsters and spells are crunch added to the rules not rules themselves.
I look forward to a new crusade!

Let's not confuse "printing" with "edition." I would imagine that the 4th print books are almost gone and the boys are just printing a new batch. They may included errata and such, but that doesn't make it a new edition.

R-

Dead Horse wrote:I fail to see where the rules are unstable.

Each printing has had some minor tweaks. I fail to see a couple classes changed and new spells added as rules changes.

Classes, monsters and spells are crunch added to the rules not rules themselves.
I look forward to a new crusade!

I don't want to speak for Arduin, or anyone, but I think I understand what he's saying. Consider most systems put out a Player's Handbook (or the equivalent) and then additional books are released that add "classes, monsters and spells" that are crunchto the system. Thus the core rule book, in this case the PHB, remains a stable ruleset for the system. Stable being defined as "not changing or fluctuating."

Honestly, I think that the changes that were brought about with the 4th printing justified the revision. I guess the announcement of a new printing was a bit of a shocker, especially since I'm not sure what they could add at this point to the PHB that would be an improvement.

Rigon wrote:Let's not confuse "printing" with "edition." I would imagine that the 4th print books are almost gone and the boys are just printing a new batch. They may included errata and such, but that doesn't make it a new edition.

R-

+1

If the 5th printing has errata with no new content (and a freely available errata for those with the 4th printing) then all will be well. If the 5th printing adds new content, then it's a new edition, and those of us who have bought multiple copies to date will feel a little sad (but most, like me, will probably buy it anyway, sigh).

Rigon wrote:Let's not confuse "printing" with "edition." I would imagine that the 4th print books are almost gone and the boys are just printing a new batch. They may included errata and such, but that doesn't make it a new edition.

R-

Exactly. Those of use who've been around a while are familiar with the "edition vs. printing" conversations. Errata and clairifications are always welcome.

Rigon wrote:Let's not confuse "printing" with "edition." I would imagine that the 4th print books are almost gone and the boys are just printing a new batch. They may included errata and such, but that doesn't make it a new edition.

I agree, I think we have been down this road before with the whole printing vs. edition thing. I'd hazard a guess that the rules have been tweeked and the editing better and more concise. Other than that I don't think it makes the current rules set obsolete.

Hey folks,

You guys are pretty dead on with why we are printing 5th printing. We are just about through the 4th printing.

There are no changes to the GUTS planned whatsoever. Well, aside from editorial. I think there is a double paragraph in the spell section and one of the pics (monk? I can't remember) covers some text. In fact we'll be updating PDFs with hardly a notice but for an email.

The real changes Omote hit right on the head. Peter and I had a long discussion at Gencon and both stressed that the EPIC feel that carries over in our setting needs to be on the books. Hince his work on the Tarrasque/Monster pic. IT will be a full sized cover, bleed off the edge, no green frames etc etc.

I hope that sets your mind at ease!

Thanks,
Steve

Troll Lord wrote:Hey folks,

You guys are pretty dead on with why we are printing 5th printing. We are just about through the 4th printing.

There are no changes to the GUTS planned whatsoever. Well, aside from editorial. I think there is a double paragraph in the spell section and one of the pics (monk? I can't remember) covers some text. In fact we'll be updating PDFs with hardly a notice but for an email.

The real changes Omote hit right on the head. Peter and I had a long discussion at Gencon and both stressed that the EPIC feel that carries over in our setting needs to be on the books. Hince his work on the Tarrasque/Monster pic. IT will be a full sized cover, bleed off the edge, no green frames etc etc.

I hope that sets your mind at ease!

Thanks,
Steve

This, right here, is why I got much man love for this guy. Got a question or concern? The man, himself, comes in and puts your mind at ease! Thanks Steve, for enlightening us (or me, at least)!

Troll Lord wrote:Hey folks,

You guys are pretty dead on with why we are printing 5th printing. We are just about through the 4th printing.

There are no changes to the GUTS planned whatsoever. Well, aside from editorial. I think there is a double paragraph in the spell section and one of the pics (monk? I can't remember) covers some text. In fact we'll be updating PDFs with hardly a notice but for an email.

The real changes Omote hit right on the head. Peter and I had a long discussion at Gencon and both stressed that the EPIC feel that carries over in our setting needs to be on the books. Hince his work on the Tarrasque/Monster pic. IT will be a full sized cover, bleed off the edge, no green frames etc etc.

I hope that sets your mind at ease!

Thanks,
Steve

Thanks for the clarification!

My future buying schedule remains intact now.

Hmm... am I the only one that really digs the current cover? I really like the chimeras in action.

Frost wrote:Hmm... am I the only one that really digs the current cover? I really like the chimeras in action.

Oh, it's a beautiful cover, to be sure. However, as has been pointed out here, it's the "feel" of the art. C&C is, after all, a type of D&D - I don't want to call it a simulacrum or version...but, let's face it, it's an OGL rendition of "the world's most popular role playing game." When I first saw the PHB, the only clue that I had that it might have something to do with D&D is the name, "Player's Handbook." That title alone made me flip through it. The cover art didn't have a "D&D feel" to it and didn't give me the clue to pick it up. A fantasy RPG, yes, but not a D&D-based one.

So, I get what the others are saying from first hand experience. Giving the book a D&D'ish cover will be a welcome invitation to have a look to those familiar with the original game. Having said that, I can only hope that we will continue to see Peter Bradley's astonishing, beautiful artwork throughout the tomes.

I don't believe I'm going to get the fifth printing books. I'm sorry to have to say that since I have been a part of the group since nearly the very beginning. But I feel it needs to be said - again.

This is going to sound odd since I do tend to be a fan of Original Dungeons & Dragons, or little brown books if you prefer, but my second-largest issue is what I see as a lack of consistency between the game mechanics in the Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasure. It sounds odd simply because Castles & Crusades I believe was designed to be mechanically consistent, especially with the d20 System as its baseline, unlike Original Dungeons & Dragons. The main problem I see is that rules from one book do not carry over into the other as they should.

Castles & Crusades feels disjointed to me, and honestly it's not something I'm used to. I can understand implementing new rules as options (c.f. Castle Keeper's Guide) but the core rules absolutely need to be consistent. Why do I feel they need to be consistent? Because the lack of consistency I believe hinders adoption of the game by confusing the reader, bringing about complaints of poor editing. Complaints that, for all we may wish it to be otherwise, are valid.

I'm sure to the Trolls and many of you I sound like a damn broken record, but if I didn't care about this game I wouldn't be saying these things. In my opinion, if we want the game to be the absolute best it can be, the Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasure need to be gone through with a fine tooth comb and any inconsistencies in the game mechanics must be eradicated with extreme prejudice. Then I will consider bringing a fifth printing into my house.

Traveller wrote:but my second-largest issue is what I see as a lack of consistency between the game mechanics in the Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasure.

I'm just now starting to go through M&T, after going through PHB line by line. What area(s) is out of alignment?

Lord Dynel wrote:Seriously, though....what can we expect from a 5th printing?

Fixing all the affect/effect oopsies would be a good start.

Naww, not an OMG moment for me. Based on the popularity of the game, I expected additional print versions. Just like AD&D.

In fact, if the Trolls don't do a 2nd edition version of C&C (and we don't expect that they will), it's quite likely that the PH will have more print versions than the AD&D PH.

I agree with Traveller ~ twould be good to do a exhaustive edit and reconciliation betwixt the PH and M&T, as well as a final correction of all errata in the PH!

That said, I look forward to buying and receiving the 5th print Players Handbook!!!

Arduin wrote:

Traveller wrote:but my second-largest issue is what I see as a lack of consistency between the game mechanics in the Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasure.

I'm just now starting to go through M&T, after going through PHB line by line. What area(s) is out of alignment?

Some of it has to do with minor things such as maneuverability classes for flying creatures. Until the CKG, these were an oversight, but now the CKG clarifies some of these things. If these things are to be in the core system, then they should be explained in the core books.

The largest portion of my discontent is related to the inconsistent application of the encumbrance rules throughout M&T. A notable example is horses. I would expect that if I open up Monsters & Treasure to the entry on horses I would find carrying capacity for each horse and pony listed in terms of EV, which according to the PHB is the lingua franca of weight and volume in the game. Instead, horses have their carrying capacity listed in pounds, which requires that you either remember how many pounds are equivalent to 1 EV, or you do the math to find it out for yourself.

Someone brand new to the game, who may not be used to the concept of the CK being more than an "entertainer" (i.e. coming from Pathfinder or the Abomination) will look at that and get a bit confused. After all, aren't weights and volume expressed in terms of encumbrance values? If he read the PHB he would think so. M&T ignores the encumbrance rules, and it should not do so.

The same problem occurs with magical items. Depending on how you feel about magic items, they either weigh the same as a non-magical variant, have reduced weight, or no weight at all. However, regardless of their weight, they still have volume and therefore should have an EV number. They don't. The bulky items, such as carpets, should make it more difficult to maneuver effectively in a ten-foot wide corridor than without the carpet. This applies regardless of weight.

There are other niggling issues, mostly related to editing. The Trolls know about this yet some things still have not been corrected from the first printing, especially the gold piece and experience values of the figurines of wondrous power. That one irks me, since it was pointed out back in the second printing and yet still didn't make an appearance in the third print of M&T. Then there are the treasure tables. Three times now they have been drafted. Three times now something went wrong with them, mostly related to asterisks leading to the wrong tables. But this last time, one table (Armor and Shields) is set up in such a manner that if you get the chance to reroll, it's possible to end up with a die roll of 01-07, which refers to a shield. All well and good except the reroll is for armor. We know that it doesn't make sense and we would simply roll again until we got a result that fit. But Mr. Noob coming from Pathfinder? He'd wonder what the heck was going on and complain about bad editing.

And he would be right.

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Sorry everybody for my ranting. The point I'm trying to make is that in order for both books to be a cohesive whole they need to be edited as a cohesive whole. Instead they are being edited as separate books, and for a system that has its rules broken up into two books like this, that I don't believe is working out well.

@Rhuvein: The PHB has a long way to go before it can surpass the 17+ printings of the AD&D PHB. Yet out of those 17+ printings, there were only two or three errors corrected in the entire run, and nothing after the 6th printing.

I love the idea of a edge to edge cover. I've got one question and one concern....

Question: Will a new "complete" set be released? I've yet to buy M&T or a CKG and would love to get them all together when the 5th printing is done.

Concern: Will the books continue to be the larger than normal size that they are now? My C&C sticks out just a BIT farther than every other RPG book I own. While this isn't a big deal, its strange to me.

Traveller wrote: Some of it has to do with minor things such as maneuverability classes for flying creatures. Until the CKG, these were an oversight, but now the CKG clarifies some of these things. If these things are to be in the core system, then they should be explained in the core books. ...

Thanks. I noticed the classes for flying creatures on a couple of listings. I thought they were SRD artifacts that were missed in editing. I guess on the carrying capacity I'll convert for EV and edit directly into my PDF copy.

Ozreth wrote:Question: Will a new "complete" set be released? I've yet to buy M&T or a CKG and would love to get them all together when the 5th printing is done.

This would really tempt me. Right now, I'm very happy with the current printing. The great thing about C&C is that, apart from small changes, you can play with any printing. However, a spiffy new collector's set would tempt me. I was going to get the current Complete Set, but then ended up picking up all the books individually instead.

Troll Lord wrote:Hey folks,

You guys are pretty dead on with why we are printing 5th printing. We are just about through the 4th printing.

There are no changes to the GUTS planned whatsoever. Well, aside from editorial. I think there is a double paragraph in the spell section and one of the pics (monk? I can't remember) covers some text. In fact we'll be updating PDFs with hardly a notice but for an email.

The real changes Omote hit right on the head. Peter and I had a long discussion at Gencon and both stressed that the EPIC feel that carries over in our setting needs to be on the books. Hince his work on the Tarrasque/Monster pic. IT will be a full sized cover, bleed off the edge, no green frames etc etc.

I hope that sets your mind at ease!

Thanks,
Steve

This is awsome. I just started C&C and my current group is picking up the 4th printing PHB (coming from 4e). It would NOT sit well with them if the version they picked up was immediately outdated.

Thanks Steve!

Arduin wrote:Not sure about this. 5 versions/printings in 6 years is a bit excessive for an RPG.

With the exception of the 4th, each printing isn't that different from the previous. The Trolls tweak font size, integrate errata, and overall each is pretty much the same as the first. The 4th printing has a new cover, which I like, but I wonder if the fact it looks so different confuses potential customers who might think C&C is in another "edition."

I think it's neat that if you buy the latest printing you get as many errors corrected as possible. I wish other companies would bother to do this.

finarvyn wrote:I think it's neat that if you buy the latest printing you get as many errors corrected as possible. I wish other companies would bother to do this.

I absolutely love this exact reason for the latest printings. You want to correct as much as possible to make the game even better. I love the 4th printings of the C&C PHB. *LOVE* The interior is awesome, the additions of the Appendecies do not change the game one bit. Face it, the old barbarian sucked balls and was a useless class. The 4th printing didn't invalidate anything from the other printings, only corrected what needed to be corrected to make the game better, and they did so without changing the mechanics of the game.

Now, there is a new cover to this great game in the upcoming 5th printing. A few typos and editing errors will be corrected. All good things Crusaders.

~O

To me, the books have been cheap enough to pick-up the new printings as they come, even if just for collector purposes. I came into C&C during the 3rd print of the PH and later grabbed the 4th. Even if nothing major changes, I'll more than likely pick up the 5th printing as well.

Omote wrote:

finarvyn wrote:I think it's neat that if you buy the latest printing you get as many errors corrected as possible. I wish other companies would bother to do this.

I absolutely love this exact reason for the latest printings. You want to correct as much as possible to make the game even better. I love the 4th printings of the C&C PHB. *LOVE* The interior is awesome, the additions of the Appendecies do not change the game one bit. Face it, the old barbarian sucked balls and was a useless class. The 4th printing didn't invalidate anything from the other printings, only corrected what needed to be corrected to make the game better, and they did so without changing the mechanics of the game.

Now, there is a new cover to this great game in the upcoming 5th printing. A few typos and editing errors will be corrected. All good things Crusaders.

~O

If the new printing has no new mechanics and just minor corrections, I hope they post those so ya don't have to purchase the PHB again just to get corrections...

I count myself among those who are happy enough with their 4th printing PHB, but would gladly buy a 5th printing if it really were cleaned up and as errata-free as humanly possible. I'd like to humbly suggest to the Trolls that they handle it the way they handled the CKG, working closely with the fans to correct the PDF before releasing the hardback. If we were to handle it that way, I bet we could get something 100% error free and clear as a bell.