Troll Lord Games

Hope this is the right forum; I failed to find a thread on this particular topic, but that's probably reflective of sucktastic use of the search feature on my part.

Anyhow, basically the same as a thread I posted on rpg.net asking about save vs. magic and how the escalating CL (basically level of caster) means that a same-level conflict have more or less* the same chance of save failure for all levels, which is generally pretty high for secondary attributes (~85%, often enough). I'm interested to know what people do if they don't use the RAW on this; I tend to add spell level instead of caster level and I wondered if others used different systems.

In the rpg.net thread, Melire said that this can be avoided by buffing and magic items, with which I agree, but I also rather liked the way saves got easier and easier in 1e (although I don't require it gets quite as easy as it did in 1e) whilst at the same time finding the buffing+christmas tree approach (or else you're playing rocket-tag) one of the less enjoyable things about 3.x. I'm not saying that the RAW leads to badwrongfun, just that I prefer a game where saves vs spells get fairly significantly easier and I wondered what other people who felt like me did in their own games. I had hoped there'd be something about hacking the system in this way in the CKG, but saves are basically not split out from the standard SIEGE engine in the discussion of hacking the SIEGE engine (and again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that I'd like to do something different and I'd be interested to see what other people did).

If I've just missed a thread about it, I apologise (and please link me to it!). Have the Trolls themselves ever opined on how this might be hacked?

I love C&C and have been making contributions to the brothers Chenault's star-spanning rpg empire and truck rail repair fund**; this is about the only wrinkle, for me, and it's obviously going to be a bigger issue for me as we get to higher levels (our last session was an 8-hour old-school Greyhawk module which we finished in one sitting -- it's a pretty short module -- and which I loved doing).

*Higher level characters do, of course, have some options and may have increased stats, etc, plus have items. However, I'm interested in the base chance, which doesn't really change unless stats do.

**So they can attach a truck topper to Girl and avoid it raining on the books which, as per Iacta Alea Est in the last Crusader, was narrowly avoided on the last GenCon trip.

Well, on the one hand, the bad guys are going to get tougher to challenge the party. But on the other hand, its a scarcity issue. Just how many villains do you have around that can match the accomplishments of the characters? The big evil guy should be rare. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has enough lesser challenges to allow the characters to go back and perhaps accomplish something that they couldn't at earlier levels.

The CK sets the challenge after all. You don't have to keep putting the numbers up. After all the CL of a given adventure is an average of all the various CL's in the adventure. Some are easy, some are near impossible (and thus best defeated by avoidance).

gideon_thorne wrote:Well, on the one hand, the bad guys are going to get tougher to challenge the party. But on the other hand, its a scarcity issue. Just how many villains do you have around that can match the accomplishments of the characters? The big evil guy should be rare. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has enough lesser challenges to allow the characters to go back and perhaps accomplish something that they couldn't at earlier levels.

The CK sets the challenge after all. You don't have to keep putting the numbers up. After all the CL of a given adventure is an average of all the various CL's in the adventure. Some are easy, some are near impossible (and thus best defeated by avoidance).

Sure, that's a different way to generate CLs, but I'd also want to apply it to the players' spells against opponents and so it'll affect their spell selection, etc; I think it's fair enough that they'd want to know what the general rule was. In any case, I'm using 1e and 2e modules, so the opponents are pretty much already statted based on the assumption that saves vs. magic get easier even in same-level conflicts*.

*There's another issue with the CLs of general saves against monster powers, but that doesn't apply to the players too, so fixing the CLs there is easy enough for the CK to do, I agree.

It's a matter of perspective. Wizards and other spell casters in the C&C game are dangerous. This is probably by design. PCs of all levels, but especially of equal levels, should be frightened to face a wizard of like level. Wizards in C&C are a wonderous and terrible thing.

Though C&C resembles D&D in many ways, the most defined way that it doesn't is in the saving throw/Siege Engine system. This alone makes C&C a different style of game where magic is quite potent. In this way, C&C is much different than D&D.

All of that being said, the way to get better at saves is best done through magic items. Take a look at the items that give +2, +4 and +6 to attributes. This is a good way to get those saves up. You don't have to have PCs be Christmas trees, but if a PC were to be good at every save then magic items are the best way to go by the RAW. Outside of the RAW, if you want saves to be better you might want to institute a bonus to an attribute/s at every X level or a bonus to save in the same manner.

~O

Omote wrote:It's a matter of perspective. Wizards and other spell casters in the C&C game are dangerous. This is probably by design. PCs of all levels, but especially of equal levels, should be frightened to face a wizard of like level. Wizards in C&C are a wonderous and terrible thing.

Sure, and they're terrible to other wizards of that level as well, rather like the "glass cannons" sometimes spoken of in 3.x conversations. I don't think that it's a bad way to play, it's just not how 1e was (and that's basically what I'm aiming for and where C&C in other regards comes very close to the same feel but with a better -- more coherent and also streamlined -- underlying system).

Though C&C resembles D&D in many ways, the most defined way that it doesn't is in the saving throw/Siege Engine system. This alone makes C&C a different style of game where magic is quite potent. In this way, C&C is much different than D&D.

All of that being said, the way to get better at saves is best done through magic items. Take a look at the items that give +2, +4 and +6 to attributes. This is a good way to get those saves up. You don't have to have PCs be Christmas trees, but if a PC were to be good at every save then magic items are the best way to go by the RAW. Outside of the RAW, if you want saves to be better you might want to institute a bonus to an attribute/s at every X level or a bonus to save in the same manner.

~O

I guess I don't like the idea of attribute boosts as the solution, which will affect things other than saves (and I agree with you and Melire from the other thread, magic items is how to do it inside RaW). When I've used spell level as the CL rather than caster level, it's been OK, though and it doesn't require much of a change to RaW (just a single change to one small element of the rules); I don't know, though, what it'll play like as I go up in levels because we're not there yet (given that I want saves to be easier; I appreciate that it'll change how things feel compared to a RaW game but what I'm going for here is something between the feel of RaW C&C and 1e).

Then, perhaps, let me offer an alternative solution. If you want to keep playing by the rules as written, why not come up with a BONUS TO SAVING THROW chart for you game? If you want the feeling more like 1E but want to play C&C this might be the best way to go.

For example:

Fighter: +1 to all saving throws at levels 3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24
Wizard: +1 to all saving throws at levels 2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23
Rogue: +1 to all saving throws at levels 4,8,12,6,20,24
etc.

Perhaps you can have this saving throw bonus based on race, or in addition to race:

Human: +1 to saving throws at levels 1,5,10,15,20,25
Elf: +1 to saving throws at levels 3,8,13,18,23
Halfling: +1 to saving throws at levels 2,7,12,17,22
Dragonborn: +1 to saves at levels 1,10,20
etc.

Using this method you can tailor saves to classes and/or races and increase the chance of the save while keeping the Seige check in place.

~O

Alternate Magic Items:

Headband of Spiritual Focus: +1 on all Mental saving throws.

Diadem of Focused Persona: Make all CHA saves prime.

Ring of Terrible Tribbles: +1 on all non-prime saves.

Weyhauser's Elfin Boots: Human Only. +3 to DEX saves.

~O

Sounds like you've got a straightforward solution. Let us know how it works as levels rise.

Omote: thanks! I will think about that table of bonuses to saves. I could then leave it up to the player to tell me the die roll result, adding that and also the stat bonus (if any)

Just Jeff: I like it enough but it doesn't reflect caster skill directly (it does indirectly, at least when they cast higher-level spells, because only higher-level wizards can cast them).

I am sort of surprised the Trolls didn't publish advice on hacking this around in the CKG, but I guess it's not a problem for most people.

Question for those whose rules-understanding is better than mine -

So, not having yet run a C&C game, but also wanting to run my 1e modules, I've a question:

If I did that Save-pluses-at-higher-levels to accomodate the 1e modules, wouldn't that slant saves a different way when running a C&C module(s)?

And, if so, would the answer be to simply up the CLs in the C&C adventures to compensate?

Any and all answers to this would be welcome, thanks!

It would slant the CLs by being easier to make the save, as was the original point of this thread I think. But raising the difficulty again to make saves harder defeats the purpose of the Save-Pluses-at-Higher-Levels. In that case, I would say to leave the C&C save system alone and use them BTB.

~O

Yeah, unless you are super resilient (eg primed in that area), you should fail your save vs magic etc most of the time. It's freakin magic.

Magic sux if it never works.

NPC wizards won't be scary & PC mage will be a useless & frustrating occupation. If spells just get shaken off half the time then where's the thrill.

Now if making your save vs a fireball is a rare & underdog come good event leading to hollering & high fives all round then I am A OK with that.

Why water it down?

Omote, 'thustra, maybe this morning my INT is down or something, but I'm not quite understanding...so help me out (again) please -

IF there's an inherent difference in how 1e did saves .vs C&C saves, how should saving throws be changed/modified/plus-or-minused when running characters through a 1e module .vs how modified/left-the-same when running them through a C&C module?

Or simply use RAW? And, if using RAW, should the CL of saves in 1e modules be changed? If so, HOW so?

Time for me to get more coffee...

There is no direct conversion process from 1E saves to C&C saves. The mechanic is just plain different. C&Cs saves are a bit tougher to succeed at when compared to 1E saves, particularly at higher levels. However, the math is not consistant in any way you look at the numbers. This being the case, in my opinion, it is very hard to modify the numbers to work well with a 1E module.

The option I used above where each class and/or race gets additional bonuses to saving throws based on level it an attempt to reflect how saves get easier in 1E. Additonally, if you were to use such a tweek, each class would probably get it's own bonus-to-saves chart. This still doesn't quite solve the problem, but it get's closer to 1E.

Personally, I don't like to bang my head around this topic to much. I just keep the saves from C&C as they are. I don't change the CLs at all of the enemy creatures, because, afterall, this is C&C and saves are supposed to be harder. I guess if you wanted to make the saves in the 1E module a little easier, you could always just minus a point or two off the the oppoenent's HD when determining the overall CL.

I'm sorry there is no definite answer. Many players and CKs look for an exact answer to this question, but it is not a simple answer as 1E and the C&C saves system is so fundimentally different.

Good gaming!

~O

Riki, I wouldn't turn my brain inside out trying to "balance" it all. I'd just run it as C&C, no bonuses, no changes. Just play.

is that lazyness? Maybe. But basically to me it is effort vs reward. I have found it all plays fine anyway. C&C pc's are slightly tougher IMO (especially with an Advantage) than 1e anyway. Not worth all the number fiddling for a dubious "reward".

zarathustra wrote:Yeah, unless you are super resilient (eg primed in that area), you should fail your save vs magic etc most of the time. It's freakin magic.

Magic sux if it never works.

NPC wizards won't be scary & PC mage will be a useless & frustrating occupation. If spells just get shaken off half the time then where's the thrill.

Now if making your save vs a fireball is a rare & underdog come good event leading to hollering & high fives all round then I am A OK with that.

Why water it down?

Because I like the way 1e felt and I like C&C because it's a more logical system, which I can use to play 1e modules. C&C is our non-3.x game -- we play Pathfinder half of the time -- and I don't want both games to have superpowered casters, even if their power has different roots. I wouldn't even be DMing C&C at all if not for it being so easy to use with 1e material. I don't need an exact reproduction of the 1e saves chart -- I like the idea of the SIEGE version, just not how save CLs are calculated, and those CLs aren't by any means the whole of the SIEGE show or feel* -- but getting something closer to how 1e played is my aim.


*Indeed, in the CKG there are suggestions for modifying base target numbers which comprise a static change to outcomes. I prefer looking at save CLs for production of a scaling modification, because CLs are where the native C&C scaling -- the only bit with which I have an issue -- is applied anyhow.

In fact and in addition, I'd say that part of the beauty and genius of the SIEGE engine is that CLs can be so easily hacked to make the game feel different. I guess that's part of why I'm surprised that advice on it hasn't appeared in the CKG or Crusader, along with other advice on hacking SIEGE.

If you are playing with Advantages, use some that increase saves to X catagories (ie; great fortitude, iron will, etc).

Lobo316 wrote:If you are playing with Advantages, use some that increase saves to X catagories (ie; great fortitude, iron will, etc).

I could do, but that doesn't feel very 1e to me and it's 1e I'm aiming for (a more sensible 1e, mind you, otherwise I'd use my actual 1e or OSRIC stuff). I mean, modding the CLs for spells and other saves is probably about two sentences of text and changes the way saves feel without having to use advantages while keeping the essential coolness of the SIEGE engine. I could also use tables as Omote suggested and that'd be OK too, but I'd probably use that if something simpler didn't work.

Won't know until after Christmas, now, though, how things pan out.