Troll Lord Games

When I broke Winter Runes out of the vault several months ago, it was my intent to do a quick conversion to C&C, get it out there and then move on. After working on it for several months, I'm less inclined to do that. The basis for the book is strong: a series of loosely connected adventures that give the CK the background of a campaign, meshed with a cool setting (Aihrde or contained enough to drop in your home world); this combined with new magic items, new monsters and a new spell caster (prestige class for the 3rd edition).

Well all of this is well and good and pretty typical fare. But the more that I've worked with this the more I want to expand upon it and make it a more active part of the C&C universe. The rune spells alone demand more attention. Jason Walton did some pretty cool runes for each spell back in the day and these were never really expanded upon. It seems a concept that is half grown but never allowed to bare fruit.

The setting too, the Gottland, a spectacular landscape that offered countless possibilities to expand the game was never fully addressed. Travel in the snow, winter conditions, etc etc Couple that with the equipment needed to survive in wintery environments...this all offers the perfect kick off point for a campaign adventure set in the Winter Dark.

Essentially the first edition of this book was rushed and tailored for another game.

As I work with this project, Winter Runes is evolving into something closer to its original form, this time, for Castles & Crusades.

With that in mind I've charged Peter with a new cover (see below) and he has embarked up a host of new interior sketches for the book. For myself I am adding equipment listings, weapons listings, expanded rules for play in the Winter Environs, use of the Winter Runes for all classes through Mana points, and more episodic adventures to link the existing together better.

And more so, I am working on having the Rune Spells made into actual tiles. Each tile is wooden with the Rune engraved on its surface. I'm not sure how many of these will actually be made.

Thoughts and comments are much appreciated!
Steve

Ooo, real magic. Make different runes on different types of wood... stain with a little Davis blood from the printing/cutting machine.

http://www.ravenchilde.com/WR_CoverFinal.jpg

Piiiicturrrreeee.

With descriptions like these, it will be hard not to liven up the C&C fans. C&C is a game that demands expansion. Not that C&C needs it, but the nature of the game lends itself to expansion. Winter Runes seems like that expansion.

> A wholly self-contained micro setting, with rules to support many aspects of the C&C RPG.
> Adventures to better realize the setting and rules.
> Traditional Troll Lord Games uniqueness.

With TLG Steve's description above, there is no doubt in my mind that this product can be an immensely popular and propel the C&C game ahead. I very much look forward to this product.

~O

Nice cover. Didn't the filler cover have the woman turned around the other way, hence the Peter Bradley female "butt shots" pose. I kid, I kid, but there were a few of them in Of Gods and Monsters. Good stuff, Peter and TLG.

Does Davis have the blood to spare??

A special note about Mana Points: Though cool, if the Rune Mark spells are not carefully balanced agaisnt the mana point system trouble will find its way to C&C. Mana points as they are described in the CKG are neato, but make higher level casters even more insanely powerful. Remember, using the mana point system allows for spells like magic missile, fireball, etc. to be, theoretically, cast more often than a wizard of like level would be normally allowed to under the standard C&C rules.

Careful consideration must be spent on this game mechanic.

~O

Troll Lord wrote:With that in mind I've charged Peter with a new cover (see below) and he has embarked up a host of new interior sketches for the book. For myself I am adding equipment listings, weapons listings...and more episodic adventures to link the existing together better...And more so, I am working on having the Rune Spells made into actual tiles.

A new cover and sketches are always welcome as they mark the difference between the 3.X edition and full transition to the C&C.

Same goes for equipment, weapons, gear etc. That's always good (along with more monsters!)

Linked adventures are always cool. Might be cool to see this as a box set with a seperate setting book and linked module book.

And how cool is that wooden tiles for runes. Even hard card stock would be cool (maybe with reverse runes on the other side) and if you make this into a box set, well you'll need a cool silk or velvet black rune bag for them. Kind of like what Fantasy Flight Games did with the Lord Rings Board Game Sauron Expansion.

One thing that gave me pause though....

Troll Lord wrote:...expanded rules for for play in the Winter Environs, use of the Winter Runes for all classes through Mana points....

I like C&C and big attraction for me is that it is rules light. The CKG has the optional rules and I know that you guys said before that the CKG was not needed and if any setting adventure, etc. came out you wouldn't reference CKG, but include the rules in there. I know the inclination is there, but creating a bunch of new rules would be frustrating. The rules work just fine without another 10 tables of reaction to Frostbite and slow travel in Winter Tundra or codifying 10 different ways you're AC is affected by snow.

I'm with Omote on the Mana points as well. I do think that it would be a good place to show case the option of mana points and the flexiblity of the system, but please have it structured for "traditional" C&C (whatever that maybe - but I think it means PHB and M&T) and just add *Optional* Text or Rule boxes for this stuff.

I agree with TheMetal1.

Omote wrote:With descriptions like these, it will be hard not to liven up the C&C fans. C&C is a game that demands expansion. Not that C&C needs it, but the nature of the game lends itself to expansion. Winter Runes seems like that expansion.

> A wholly self-contained micro setting, with rules to support many aspects of the C&C RPG.
> Adventures to better realize the setting and rules.
> Traditional Troll Lord Games uniqueness.

With TLG Steve's description above, there is no doubt in my mind that this product can be an immensely popular and propel the C&C game ahead. I very much look forward to this product.

~O

C&C is in need of expansion without a doubt, and I don't just mean more rules or classes. This is exactly what I have in mind with Winter Runes, but that's not the only thing we are doing. We have a city book in the works, a planescapes book and of course the ABP.

Steve

Omote wrote:A special note about Mana Points: Though cool, if the Rune Mark spells are not carefully balanced agaisnt the mana point system trouble will find its way to C&C. Mana points as they are described in the CKG are neato, but make higher level casters even more insanely powerful. Remember, using the mana point system allows for spells like magic missile, fireball, etc. to be, theoretically, cast more often than a wizard of like level would be normally allowed to under the standard C&C rules.

Careful consideration must be spent on this game mechanic.

~O

Omote,

Thanks for the heads up. We'll do a more formal playtest of this tomorrow night at the weekly game. I've found that a great many of these point systems break down either at the low end or the upper end. The Rune caster is tied to his totem (though I'm not fond of that name and it may change as it links the class and his actions to the primeval) so the mana is tied to his totem as well. I'm musing on something akin to 'charges' as you would find in wands, staffs, etc.

But, point taken and I'll air concepts here for comments and deliberations.

Steve

TheMetal1 wrote:

Troll Lord wrote:With that in mind I've charged Peter with a new cover (see below) and he has embarked up a host of new interior sketches for the book. For myself I am adding equipment listings, weapons listings...and more episodic adventures to link the existing together better...And more so, I am working on having the Rune Spells made into actual tiles.

A new cover and sketches are always welcome as they mark the difference between the 3.X edition and full transition to the C&C.

Same goes for equipment, weapons, gear etc. That's always good (along with more monsters!)

Linked adventures are always cool. Might be cool to see this as a box set with a seperate setting book and linked module book.

And how cool is that wooden tiles for runes. Even hard card stock would be cool (maybe with reverse runes on the other side) and if you make this into a box set, well you'll need a cool silk or velvet black rune bag for them. Kind of like what Fantasy Flight Games did with the Lord Rings Board Game Sauron Expansion.

One thing that gave me pause though....

Troll Lord wrote:...expanded rules for for play in the Winter Environs, use of the Winter Runes for all classes through Mana points....

I like C&C and big attraction for me is that it is rules light. The CKG has the optional rules and I know that you guys said before that the CKG was not needed and if any setting adventure, etc. came out you wouldn't reference CKG, but include the rules in there. I know the inclination is there, but creating a bunch of new rules would be frustrating. The rules work just fine without another 10 tables of reaction to Frostbite and slow travel in Winter Tundra or codifying 10 different ways you're AC is affected by snow.

I'm with Omote on the Mana points as well. I do think that it would be a good place to show case the option of mana points and the flexiblity of the system, but please have it structured for "traditional" C&C (whatever that maybe - but I think it means PHB and M&T) and just add *Optional* Text or Rule boxes for this stuff.

Metal,

I think I use that word, "rules" for lack of a better term. Their won't be any crazy rules on armor reductions for cold weather environs etc etc. I'm the anti-rule flagship for C&C. Less is more and all that.

What I plan to do is expand the section on how to play in Winter Environs with descriptive terms for types of snow, terrain, storms, etc. There will be an expanded movement section to show what these terrains do to movement. How the environs affect weapons there, for instance, the most common bow is the cable backed bow, why? because it is a way to reinforce wood that might be too weak to stand teh pull pressure. I've started drawing up a more comprehensive encounter chart. Things of this nature.

Maybe I should use the word TOOLS....of course then Todd would just say "he said 'tools'."

As for the traditional C&C. It will be. Rule one is that if you want to play a runemark like a wizard, carry on. There is a list of existing spells that are runes, and the list of winter runes. Rule two is how to morph your existing character into a runemark and that is where the totem comes in etc etc. From a traditional point of view, picture the runemark as someone who has gained certain knowledge about the rune magic and has taken up a magic item that can cast them.

But help us along the course, if you or omote, or anyone have more specific concerns, voice them please. It is very possible that I have not thought of an angle or two. (though you spoiled my 145 cross referenced charts and tables for frost bite! )

Steve

Excellent, Steve.

I buy!!

As cool as the wood runes are, I question the limited edition like part of it. I can hear a lot of, "What! I can't buy runes for my game?" after they are all gone. I don't see why you couldn't offer something inferior to the wood runes, and make the wood ones a limited run then the inferior available for everyone, either something like plastic ones or even the suggested cardboard ones.

I also wonder if the runes should be sold separately as an add on and no need for a boxed set.

I have no idea what the vision is, but either way, I know I'd want an alternative, if I miss out on the wood runes.

Rune ice cube trays (for Dr. Pepper, natch)

get it? ice cube trays? winter? ice?

Sir Ironside wrote:As cool as the wood runes are, I question the limited edition like part of it. I can hear a lot of, "What! I can't buy runes for my game?" after they are all gone. I don't see why you couldn't offer something inferior to the wood runes, and make the wood ones a limited run then the inferior available for everyone, either something like plastic ones or even the suggested cardboard ones.

I also wonder if the runes should be sold separately as an add on and no need for a boxed set.

I have no idea what the vision is, but either way, I know I'd want an alternative, if I miss out on the wood runes.

Iron,

I hear you. Presently we are planning to release these as part of a pre-order system we are trying to build into our website. Using the same tools that kickstarter brought to the table for Classic Monsters, the tiles will be part of the package (s). Setting it up on our own site, allows us to ship internationally with no problems. But what is offered with the book will be a special deal. The book will go into distribution by itself as packaging these tiles with it will be a pain in the rump. The tiles, from there, will probably be sold separately but in a different packaging and more expensive than when bundled, etc.

The tiles will also be part of a game, played by the White Order to better learn the order of the rune spells.

What the pre-orders allow us to do is gauge interest in various projects, which is a good thing.

Steve

Here was the original logo for the Ruen books, these were to be called Companion Books (Winter Runes, Heart of Glass, and Bergtolt were under this label).

Relaxo wrote:Rune ice cube trays (for Dr. Pepper, natch)

get it? ice cube trays? winter? ice?

hmm we could make 3d Runes, place them in ice trays!

"GET 'EM WHILE THEY'RE HOT....er COLD!"

Steve,

I loved the d20 version, so can't wait for it to come out! - Boy you are making it hard to live on military retirement pay, and less than half teacher pay!

Troll Lord wrote:

Sir Ironside wrote:As cool as the wood runes are, I question the limited edition like part of it. ...

I hear you. Presently we are planning to release these as part of a pre-order system we are trying to build into our website. Using the same tools that kickstarter brought to the table for Classic Monsters, the tiles will be part of the package (s). ...

The tiles will also be part of a game, played by the White Order to better learn the order of the rune spells.

What the pre-orders allow us to do is gauge interest in various projects, which is a good thing.

Steve

A side note, are military guys able to use the 50% discount with the kickstarter tools?

Money is too tight right now to buy anything (even with 50%), but once things get better I hope to throw in on the various pre orders, and just want to know if the mil 50% off is part of the pre order.

Everything I'm hearing about the new version of Winter Runes has me excited. I've always thought well of the semi-sandbox adventures the Trolls have put out (chiefly Winter Runes and Heart of Glass), and my current campaign has been aiming towards Gottland-ne for a while. (The players found a rune on the bottom of an old statue of a troll, which a member of the University of Klagenfurt identified for them - but the Crna Ruk got wind of it and are now on their tail!)

A suggestion for the trolls - I'm fine with generic, system-level rules being included in the adventure (things like the winter condition rules), but perhaps these could be provided as a separate PDF bundle - say, a $1.00 packet with the Runemark class, a $2.99 bundle of generic system options, etc.

Are encounter tables for Gottland-ne on the table already? Or is that something you & I need to talk about, Steve?

Troll Lord wrote:Iron,

I hear you. Presently we are planning to release these as part of a pre-order system we are trying to build into our website. Using the same tools that kickstarter brought to the table for Classic Monsters, the tiles will be part of the package (s). Setting it up on our own site, allows us to ship internationally with no problems. But what is offered with the book will be a special deal. The book will go into distribution by itself as packaging these tiles with it will be a pain in the rump. The tiles, from there, will probably be sold separately but in a different packaging and more expensive than when bundled, etc.

The tiles will also be part of a game, played by the White Order to better learn the order of the rune spells.

What the pre-orders allow us to do is gauge interest in various projects, which is a good thing.

Steve

So, that is a no? I'm not quite sure how to take your post. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'd expect the separate runes would cost a little more, sold separately, but this isn't out of line with other companies. Even bigger ones. There is no way I'm an economist or know what is at stake, or the logistics of TLG but personally I'd be willing to pay that extra just for the unique aspect that runes would add to game play.

Troll Lord wrote: I think I use that word, "rules" for lack of a better term. Their won't be any crazy rules on armor reductions for cold weather environs etc etc. I'm the anti-rule flagship for C&C. Less is more and all that.

Thumbs up on this!

Troll Lord wrote: What I plan to do is expand the section on how to play in Winter Environs with descriptive terms for types of snow, terrain, storms, etc. There will be an expanded movement section to show what these terrains do to movement. How the environs affect weapons there, for instance, the most common bow is the cable backed bow, why? because it is a way to reinforce wood that might be too weak to stand teh pull pressure. I've started drawing up a more comprehensive encounter chart. Things of this nature.

I think I'm tracking with you. The intent is traditional encounter charts, movement tables for Winter Adventureing, and descriptions on how the cold weather affects various items. In addition to the bow example I'm assuming the latter would be along the lines of the wear and tear/usage rule in the CKG, but tailored to effects?

Troll Lord wrote: As for the traditional C&C. It will be. Rule one is that if you want to play a runemark like a wizard, carry on. There is a list of existing spells that are runes, and the list of winter runes. Rule two is how to morph your existing character into a runemark and that is where the totem comes in etc etc. From a traditional point of view, picture the runemark as someone who has gained certain knowledge about the rune magic and has taken up a magic item that can cast them.

I'll have to go back and re-read the 3.X version I have of Winter Runes now to get a feel for it. But maybe you could share how simliar it is to say Mongoose's Runequest II (now Legend) or the Dragon-Marked(runed) house in the Eberron setting. Are Rune something any PC-type can get? Is it limited to just Wizard or just Spell Caster types?

Troll Lord wrote: (though you spoiled my 145 cross referenced charts and tables for frost bite! )

Steve

- Well there is always that book you know you've been dreaming of Castles & Crusades Wilderness Adventuring. But with that many Charts, you might want to ask Iron Crown if you could publish some supplemental stuff for Rolemaster.

Sir Ironside wrote:

Troll Lord wrote:Iron,

I hear you. Presently we are planning to release these as part of a pre-order system we are trying to build into our website. Using the same tools that kickstarter brought to the table for Classic Monsters, the tiles will be part of the package (s). Setting it up on our own site, allows us to ship internationally with no problems. But what is offered with the book will be a special deal. The book will go into distribution by itself as packaging these tiles with it will be a pain in the rump. The tiles, from there, will probably be sold separately but in a different packaging and more expensive than when bundled, etc.

The tiles will also be part of a game, played by the White Order to better learn the order of the rune spells.

What the pre-orders allow us to do is gauge interest in various projects, which is a good thing.

Steve

So, that is a no? I'm not quite sure how to take your post. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'd expect the separate runes would cost a little more, sold separately, but this isn't out of line with other companies. Even bigger ones. There is no way I'm an economist or know what is at stake, or the logistics of TLG but personally I'd be willing to pay that extra just for the unique aspect that runes would add to game play.

LOL No that no real answer. I posted the above, read it and thought to myself "I think I"m dodging that question." But then posted it anyway.

I have yet to determine the cost per unit etc. Davis and I will make a decision on how this pans out next week and post it here as soon as we know.

Steve

TheMetal1 wrote:I think I'm tracking with you. The intent is traditional encounter charts, movement tables for Winter Adventureing, and descriptions on how the cold weather affects various items. In addition to the bow example I'm assuming the latter would be along the lines of the wear and tear/usage rule in the CKG, but tailored to effects?

I'll have to go back and re-read the 3.X version I have of Winter Runes now to get a feel for it. But maybe you could share how simliar it is to say Mongoose's Runequest II (now Legend) or the Dragon-Marked(runed) house in the Eberron setting. Are Rune something any PC-type can get? Is it limited to just Wizard or just Spell Caster types?

- Well there is always that book you know you've been dreaming of Castles & Crusades Wilderness Adventuring. But with that many Charts, you might want to ask Iron Crown if you could publish some supplemental stuff for Rolemaster.

To your first comment. Yes. When I brought the CKG together my main goal became to put everything in the book that comes up at the table, not a rule per se, but some type of tool that allows quick and easy response. Winter Runes will follow that same trak, only for a winter environ.

I'm not familiar with anything other than what we do...hahah how sad is that...but the use of the runes will be left up to the CK and players; i've put in for both rune mark as a class, and evolving your character into a rune mark. That was the original inspiration for the book, Chris, one of my players, wanted his dwarf lord to become a master of the dwarven runes that Nulak had mastered...the winter runes. He was a fighter at the time. So rules for both approaches, but its up to you and your comrades to yay or nay it.

Steve

I'm trying to finalize the Winter Runes pre-orders bundles today, the video as well...not helping that I have a heck of a head cold!



Steve

So, the new C&C Logo is out.



My first impression was that it has almost a Star Wars feel to it.

But then I googled the logo, so maybe not



Is this logo just for the Winter Runes or will it become standard now for new products and follow on printings of established products?

I really like this new logo -- and hope that Crusader Magazine (for which we await future issues Real Soon Now) takes this sort of logo. Right now, the Crusader's logo doesn't look like the word "crusader" and wouldn't grab the eye of a potential purchaser. Assuming we can get it into more hobby stores, comics shops, and Barnes & Noble.

(Hey, did I just hijack this thread??!)

Quick question about the new 'Kickstarter' you've got going for the C&C Winter Runes book (the d20 version was one of my favorites in your old lineup):

The hardcover version of it, is this being done in-house or are you using the guys who did the PHB and M&T print runs? Is the final product (what we will see on store shelves) hardcover or softcover?

I know there was a lot of challenges for TLG when you did the initial batches of hardcovers (primarily the CKG) and I've read comments about 'durability' issues. Truth to tell, I didn't pay very close attention to any of that so I'm hoping you can possibly dismiss any of these persistent rumors. A hardcover version of the book would be tempting though the subsequent perfect bound books (such as the Monsters & Treasures of Aihrde) are great quality IMO.

Thanks,

M

MormonYoYoMan wrote:I really like this new logo -- and hope that Crusader Magazine (for which we await future issues Real Soon Now) takes this sort of logo. Right now, the Crusader's logo doesn't look like the word "crusader" and wouldn't grab the eye of a potential purchaser. Assuming we can get it into more hobby stores, comics shops, and Barnes & Noble.

Hell, I'd settle for it getting into this country. Somewhere, anywhere. My supplier's really let me down on the last issue.

Dragging the thread back on-topic, I'm quite fascinated by this product. It might well come in useful for my game further down the line. That poor girl on the cover's going to get frostbite in some funny places, though.

TheMetal1 wrote:So, the new C&C Logo is out.



My first impression was that it has almost a Star Wars feel to it.

But then I googled the logo, so maybe not



Is this logo just for the Winter Runes or will it become standard now for new products and follow on printings of established products?

This will be the new logo. I'm loving it! It will debut on Winter Runes (and maybe Classic Monsters) but will be spot on for the 5th printing of the Players Handbook.

Steve