Read Magic: C&C game mechanics question

[TheMetal1]

Those of you in the know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Thief class which was the pre-cursor to the Rogue in D&D 3.X and beyond (including C&C) had from it's introduction back in the 1970s the ability at a certain level to read langauges and eventually worked it's way up to magical writings. Here is a quote from Labyrinth Lord's (LL) Advanced Editions Companion (AEC), which describes the Thief Class magic reading ability. LL is a retro-clone of the original D&D or Basic D&D so emulates the rules of that era using the OGL and SRD:

Level 10: A thief can read and cast magic from magic-user (and
elf) scrolls with 90% accuracy. A failed roll means the spell does
not function as expected, and can create a horrible effect at the
Labyrinth Lords discretion. (page 14, Labyrinth Lord, by Goblinod Games)

The Bard in D&D 3.5 was able to cast arcane Magic, so it appears that when developing the class for C&C, they decided to give it the opportunity to decipher much like the thief/rogue. The Bard, IIRC got introduced to the D&D community in the 80s tome Unearthed Arcana - which I dont have. But I would suspect it was something similar to what the Thief ability was if not accessible at an earlier level due to the semi-magical nature of Bards and their songs. In a LL supplement (3rd party) by Brave Halfling Publishing, the Bard Class is given thea ablity to Decipher Magical script at an increasing percentage base (starting at like a 17% chance at 1st Level and increasing).

Magic-User / Elf Scrolls As dabblers in the arcane arts,
bards may attempt to read and cast magic from magic-user
and elf scrolls. Just like the thief ability, a failed roll means
the spell does not function as expected, and can create a
horrible effect at the Labyrinth Lord's discretion. (page 3, Delving Deeper - Bard, by Brave Halfling Publishing)

I think the Trolls gave Bards & Rogues the "Decipher Script" ability as a nod back to the older editions of D&D for both the skill of reading languages and reading magical languages. The big thing to remember is that it is incredibly hard for a Bard or a Rogue to read magic script at early levels (hence the -10) though at 10th level that penalty would all but disappear. Further, if it wasn't a prime ablity, again, still very difficult to do even at higher levels.

yes, I know that may explain the history and background, but id hasn't answered your original question yet! Bare with me!

[serleran]

It is a mistake, and incorrect, to think C&C is "inspired" or derived from d20. Its spirit, and the rules interpretations, are OD&D and OAD&D. But, this argument has had its Spirit Horse obliterated too many times to matter anymore.

[TheMetal1]

So, I think the Trolls, got the spirit and letter of the rules as intended from earlier editions captured in class ablity...But in doing so they missed the problem of Read Magic with Wizards & Illusionists.

DIVINE MAGICAL WRITINGS: Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can, except read magic is not used to do so. Instead, the character can decipher and learn the new spell from the book by spending one day plus one day per level of the spell being learned in study of it. Only characters who have the spell in question on their classbased spell lists can cast a divine spell from a scroll.(page 48 in the PHB, 3rd Printing)

Read Magic is not required do so for Divine Magical Writing...hmm...nor is it required for lucky bards & thiefs. Hmmm...

I think this is an eratta that needs to be fixed. If Divine Casters can read magic simply by studying, why can't Arcane - especailly considering non-casters have a chance to read the script.

Though, being able read the Arcane script and cast it from a scroll, isn't the same as reading it, knowing it, and being able to copy into a spell book, but again if the clerics and non-caster can, there is a discrepency here.

Perhaps a the Arcanes need a Spellcraft Ability added to their ablities, or at least added in the magic section like the Divine caster have. or simply give the Wizards & Illusionist the same Decipher Script ability as Rogues & Bards.

[TheMetal1]

It is a mistake, and incorrect, to think C&C is "inspired" or derived from d20. Its spirit, and the rules interpretations, are OD&D and OAD&D. But, this argument has had its Spirit Horse obliterated too many times to matter anymore.

Sorry about the Serlearn, you are correct - poor wording on my part. In my other posts, hopefully I'm more clear, but yes - OD&D and AD&D are the Spirit, The OGL & SRD are in and of themselves based on OD&D and AD&D. Thank you for the correction.

[TheMetal1]

Why did the first MU manage to figure out the language of magic, or magic itself without help but no one else can?

Yup, I agree with your premise. I think it is a rules issue, that was just missed by the trolls. Not a deal breaker by any means, but it warrents their attention. Considering this from the opening description of the Wizards in the PHB:

Among all peoples are those who strive to understand
the oft-forbidden and widely feared arcane magics
of the multiverse. These few must have no fear in their
quest for knowledge, as delving into the arcane involves
powers and energies poorly understood by those bound
to mortal planes. If not harnessed with care, unleashing
these magics can cause catastrophes of great proportion
and slay those who dabble in this art. The reward, however,
for the diligence and willingness to plumb the depths of
these magical energies is potentially great indeed. Wizards
bind themselves to this task, seeking to master eldritch
sorceries and unravel the riddles and meanings of the world.
They use their powers to reshape the world around them
and bring princes and kings to their knees.

It's a weird engery, in a multiverse, it's mysterious. An outsider could have taught someone or left a book around. Perhaps a high level Bard or Thief first discovered the arcane language and became that first wizard - teaching it to Wizards & Illusionists with using the better suited "Read Magic." That should resolve the chicken and egg issue

[kajukenbo]

Sorry to open a can of worms guys.

"TheMetal1" - thank you for the summary.
It seems to get the gist of my cognitive dissonance.
So you are OK with the idea that it has just been passed down in a (conveniently unbroken) line from caster to caster?

"serleran" - thank you for the clarification.
I did not understand how 3.5e WoTC rules (from 2003?) applied when it it appears C&C was first published in 2004.
It seemed a bit too fast and more likely that if anything, you were comparing C&C to WoTC's 3e game or earlier.

[kajukenbo]

I like the Read Magic spell as a cantrip more than a 1st level spell.

An alternative is to allow it to remain a spell of either cantrip or 1st level, and while the spell duration lasts, you can read (even possibly study) from another wizards spell book, or read and bring into effect a scroll that was found; however, once the duration is over the spell is just as confusing as before and cannot be used. If not using the spell, use the system you outlined to attempt to read the spell from the foreign source. I don't have my books with me, so my numbers here may be high, use spell research rules as a guide, but I would make the CL 2xSpell Level, if a spell from another caster type but the spell is on both of their spell lists (such as a wizard trying to decipher a Light spell from an illusionists spell book) add 5 to the CL . The character can check each full day of research, with a bonus of +2 for each day beyond the first. Additional bonuses include, using Read Magic +5, having deciphered any spell of a different level from the same source +2, and deciphered any spell of the same level from the same source +4. Once a check has been successful for any given spell (spell book or scroll), that spell formula is clearly understood by the character and they can freely read it at any time. Therefore, given a sufficient amount of time a 1st level wizard will eventually be able to use a scroll with a 9th level spell on it, while a 10th level wizard will still need some time to figure it out, and a 17th level wizard will generally understand it in a day or two.

If I follow you it sounds like you are suggesting a reasonable compromise, thanks "koralas":
Keep the cantrip because it is faster but given time, arcane magic can be translated without it.
That makes "Read Magic" a convenience instead of necessity.

Makes sense.

[TheMetal1]

So you are OK with the idea that it has just been passed down in a (conveniently unbroken) line from caster to caster?

Yeah, no problem with that. It's a fantasy world, so an unbroken line is not an issue at all.

[Arduin]

Yeah, no problem with that. It's a fantasy world, so an unbroken line is not an issue at all.

Especially since it isn't a single line but, countless branches that become impossible to snuff out without wiping out all humans & demi-humans...

[koralas]

If I follow you it sounds like you are suggesting a reasonable compromise, thanks "koralas":
Keep the cantrip because it is faster but given time, arcane magic can be translated without it.
That makes "Read Magic" a convenience instead of necessity.

Makes sense.

Right on the money, plus Read Magic can aid in the translation. Add in to that requiring study to learn the dialect of a scroll in order to use it, unless under the influence of a RM at the time of using the scroll, and RM becomes even more important to have on hand as a utility spell.