Cover and logo for 5th printing phb?

[serleran]

Some symbols have universal recognition. That is the power of marketing.

[Arduin]

Some symbols have universal recognition. That is the power of marketing.

True but, I don't see C&C NOT being purchased because there is a cross pictured somewhere in context with medieval garb. Just not happening...

[Just Jeff]

Speaking of fantasy artwork and women, Jim Hines had a recent blog post in which he tried to duplicate the poses from several fantasy novel covers, starting with one of his own.

http://www.jimchines.com/2012/01/striking-a-pose/

It's just as well he refused to blog his own butt crack.

[Sir Ironside]

I took another look at; A Lion in the Ropes cover, and though I like the new logo, it did seem to get lost on the cover. I don't know what would be best to fix the problem, but maybe it is something to be considered before the whole-sale change.

[tylermo]

I agree, Sir. Otherwise, nice cover and logo.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Prob'ly not enough contrast between the logo's color and that of the background.

[alcyone]

Some symbols have universal recognition. That is the power of marketing.

True but, I don't see C&C NOT being purchased because there is a cross pictured somewhere in context with medieval garb. Just not happening...

There you go, insensitively driving away the vampire player base. They can't even get NEAR a cover with a cross. Think of how that makes them feel.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Aergraith: You talk like this is a bad thing.

[Sir Ironside]

Some symbols have universal recognition. That is the power of marketing.

True but, I don't see C&C NOT being purchased because there is a cross pictured somewhere in context with medieval garb. Just not happening...

There you go, insensitively driving away the vampire player base. They can't even get NEAR a cover with a cross. Think of how that makes them feel.

What will we do about the Emo's and the Hipsters?

Woah... Wait... WotC is putting out the old AD&D so the Hipsters can play the game ironically! Catering to the Hipster crowd. It all makes sense now!

Unfortunately attracting the Emo's would require tear proof books and anyway their games wouldn't last for very long.

GM: OK you come across 4 rats.

Fighter: I kill myself!

Magic-User: I kill myself!

Rogue: I kill myself!

Cleric: I contemplate using resurrection 3 times; but I decide to kill myself.

[Arduin]

There you go, insensitively driving away the vampire player base. They can't even get NEAR a cover with a cross. Think of how that makes them feel.

Hmm, I see your point. I got it! Special order. TL's will use a black sharpie to black out the cross for an extra $2.00. Win win.

[Dead Horse]

The new logo looks cool, the brown color makes it h ide too much. So logo ok but use a color that stands out better.

A few points i picked out of others comments i feel need a comment or two...

Soft core porn... The art is at best cheesecake. There is nothing inherantly sexual about any of the art.

But Children see the books, must protect the children... Do you honestly believe that any of the pictures in C&C is going to warp or corrupt a childs mind? Did the naked pics in AD&D harm any of us oldsters? Do you think children shouldnt see classic art? Depictions of violence are worse to a growing mind then a bit of thigh or maybe cleavage.

The game is supposed to be about heroic fantasy. Not a simulation of of combat from the real world. I expect dashing heros , viscious barbarians, striking damsels, gorgeous heroines and decrepit monsters.

Look at the trailer for the up coming John Carter of Mars. Is it too racey for children? What age of children? I would say 12 and up is fine to see the movie i think it is rated PG. Does any of the C&C art exceed PG? I dont think it does. At worst i might believe PG 13.

[dachda]

The new logo looks cool, the brown color makes it h ide too much. So logo ok but use a color that stands out better.

A few points i picked out of others comments i feel need a comment or two...

Soft core porn... The art is at best cheesecake. There is nothing inherantly sexual about any of the art.

But Children see the books, must protect the children... Do you honestly believe that any of the pictures in C&C is going to warp or corrupt a childs mind? Did the naked pics in AD&D harm any of us oldsters? Do you think children shouldnt see classic art? Depictions of violence are worse to a growing mind then a bit of thigh or maybe cleavage.

The game is supposed to be about heroic fantasy. Not a simulation of of combat from the real world. I expect dashing heros , viscious barbarians, striking damsels, gorgeous heroines and decrepit monsters.

Look at the trailer for the up coming John Carter of Mars. Is it too racey for children? What age of children? I would say 12 and up is fine to see the movie i think it is rated PG. Does any of the C&C art exceed PG? I dont think it does. At worst i might believe PG 13.

You've obviously missed the point. In a society which is increasingly sexualizing young girls/women, every image which tends to show women's looks and body as their only or the major aspect which is valued by that society contributes to that sexualization. Why is this so hard to understand. Now granted I am married to a wonderful women who works as a SANE nurse, that is a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner. I'm sorry but one cannot listen to her stories of assaulted women, or hear of the research of the increase of child prostitution and sexual slavery and not consider that this sexualization of women is a major contributor to these types of crimes.

Now are a number of pictures done for a RPG by themselves a big issue? No. But images showing nearly naked women in a combat situation with men who are clothed or in armor tend to show women as either helpless or sexualized. Do I think Peter or the Trolls are sexist and misogynistic, NO I do not. Do I think a child will be injured somehow by seeing some of Peter's art, of course NOT. Would I rather see pictures of strong women in full plate fighting alongside the men, Heck YES. Would I rather see a woman wizard in full robes shooting magic missiles alongside her male party members? Heck YES.

And please drop the tired old argument that it has been this way in fantasy for 100 years so what's so wrong? Jeesh, how many things has society decided were wrong even when they had been around for decades? Any one still want images of Stepin Fetchit, the slow-talking, slow-walking, self-demeaning nitwit? See http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/coon/ for images of what was considered normal for a hundred years or more and is now not considered okay. Why shouldn't we change the art to reflect women as strong, intelligent fighters/wizards rather than "damsels" needing rescue and helpless by themselves. Jeesh, let's move forward not backward.

Okay I'm done with this argument. If my point isn't made by now I'll never figure out how to get it across. At least I'm not alone in my view that the art doesn't need more half naked women, though I'm apparently the most vocal and passionate about it.

[tylermo]

Trying to think of provocative art in C&C without having the books in front of me. Ckg has maybe two pictures of two females who look like they're sort of "close" if you know what I mean. Those are not overtly sexual, however. There may be a handful of clothed posterior shots in the ckg and in gods and monsters. Black Libram-sacrificial female on front cover and maybe one or two other sacrificial models on the inside. Seems like there's a Jason Walton piece in one of the adventures? Posterior shot seen through sheer covering. Let's not forget mermaid rump in m&t, maybe a few sexy demons in m&t of a? Short of offending parents of younger players, or getting too far off the trail, I'm not bothered by it.

[Arduin]

You've obviously missed the point. In a society which is increasingly sexualizing young girls/women

Where's the art sexualizing young girls? I only see art work showing adults.

[dachda]

tylermo:
Look at the new art for the landscape CK screen.

Arduin:
I said "SOCIETY" that means more than just the art for C&C. Our overall american society of which we and C&C are a part is what I'm talking about.


Every time I write something I get more angry and frustrated that no one seems to get my point. So this will be my last post on this thread. Thanks all.

[Arduin]

Arduin:
I said "SOCIETY" that means more than just the art for C&C. Our overall american society of which we and C&C are a part is what I'm talking about.

Well, C&C art work doesn't sexualize children, not really relevant.

[Sir Ironside]

So, when do we see a mock-up of the new cover? I'm curious as to what I'll be buying.

[mgtremaine]

tylermo:
Look at the new art for the landscape CK screen.

Arduin:
I said "SOCIETY" that means more than just the art for C&C. Our overall american society of which we and C&C are a part is what I'm talking about.


Every time I write something I get more angry and frustrated that no one seems to get my point. So this will be my last post on this thread. Thanks all.

I understand your point, and I even agree with you. I tend to stay out of threads like these because people like to argue about things way more then I enjoy. Often they focus on the smaller thoughts, the little picture, and semantics. My advice is resist replying to the but, but, but crowd, You said your peace, you even clarified your position with why it matters to you, everything else comes down to what people are willing to accept. Peter's going draw what he wants to draw, the Trolls are going to publish what they want, but in the end you pointed out the WHY of your statements, with out naming calling and that's all you can really do.


-Mike

[tylermo]

I don't think I've seen the blown up pic of the landscape screen. I'll check it out. What I could see for sure was a monster with a sword, I think. I'm sure the scene from the portrait screen will be my favorite.

I agree that Pete and the boys are going to do what they want. I'm totally cool with that.

[Snoring Rock]

C&C is fantasy role playing game derived from our own middle-ages history. So nothing wrong with crusaders, swords, or Templar crosses. The genre also accepts scantily clad women and slavery. It is a game we make what we want. If you feel you need some political correct art-work, look elsewhere please. Peter; you capture the essence of this game better than anyone, in your art. I love your work. It inspires us, and your women are beautiful. Keep it up dude!

[gideon_thorne]

That's the thing about art. People see what they choose to see. And I've never seen a case where a piece of art has produced the effect described any more than I've seen a case where Dungeons & Dragons turned someone into a raving cultist who practices real magic. I grew up in a family of artists of one kind or another, surrounded by pictures of guys and girls in all manner of states of dress. Anything from books fully of the classic works of the renaissance masters to various adult magazines my mom bought me, long before I was a teen, because she thought they'd make good reference material for a chap who, even then, was drawing (mostly comic style art at the time). It's all about perception really. The human body can be seen as something that has to be walled away in veils of fabric, a neck to foot chastity belt, and head coverings, or it can be seen as a masterwork of evolution and appreciated for the dynamic beauty it has.

Fantasy has its tropes, as does pulp, as does sci fi, and you'll be seeing looks appropriate to those latter two genre's when I get to those projects in more detail.

[Just Jeff]

There's a fair share of bare-chested male barbarian types represented in the genre, so it goes both ways.

In the PH there's one male barbarian showing his abs. Compare that with about half the females going the slinky/impractical route.

The only reason I haven't purchased the new landscape screens yet is because of the artwork. If there was something thematically along the lines of this, they'd already be on my table, even if they still had the half-bare woman heading into a dungeon.

[Arduin]

If there was something thematically along the lines of this, they'd already be on my table, even if they still had the half-bare woman heading into a dungeon.

Hmm, I don't think that TL's is going to turn C&C into a Punk Rock themed game. I could be wrong but, I don't think so...

[Just Jeff]

That wasn't the theme I was going for.

[Arduin]

That wasn't the theme I was going for.

The pic you posted sports a person that was made to look like a punk rocker...

[Just Jeff]

Well, that's WFRP for you. But she's also well armored, the only skin she's showing is from the collar up, and it's obvious from the dead dragon that she can take care of business.

[AGNKim]

Happy?!

[Sir Ironside]

The only reason I haven't purchased the new landscape screens yet is because of the artwork. If there was something thematically along the lines of this, they'd already be on my table, even if they still had the half-bare woman heading into a dungeon.

This is not a opinion on how you should purchase things, not at all.

I buy rpg things on a more form and function way and rarely tip the scales about art (I wouldn't care if all there was was pictures from xkcd on it. Come to think of it that'd be kind of cool.) There is some pretty bad art in the 4th edition GURPS books but it didn't stop me from buying a number of books. Especially screens, (GURPS was even worse than their books) that I'll hardly ever seen the art, just tables and stuff. Being landscape, larger print and up-to-date information for C&C are the big pluses for me.

(You could always glue more appropriate art on the screens. Spray glue and a roller, you'd never even know what the original art was!)

[Just Jeff]

(You could always glue more appropriate art on the screens. Spray glue and a roller, you'd never even know what the original art was!)

I've considered it.

I wouldn't see the art much, as it'd be pointed away from me. My wife, however, would spend a lot of time looking at it. Then there's the children of friends (mostly girls with their fathers beside them) and any new gamers I might get to the table (most likely couples).

[Arduin]

Well, that's WFRP for you. But she's also well armored, the only skin she's showing is from the collar up, and it's obvious from the dead dragon that she can take care of business.

I get the angle now. Yes, I prefer realistic armour wise too.