Troll Lord Games

OK, I know this has been talked about before, but after our last game, wanted to shake the topic up once more....healing.

According to the RAW, any healing when you are negative hit points take to you 0, first, then normal healing can be applied. We are thinking of changing that to magic healing can take you back above 0 (weather spell or potion) and not have to "stop a 0" first.

Is anyone else doing this? I really don't see anything "unbalancing" about this, other then pacing. Do I want longer restings/more downtime, or would I rather they get back on thier feet and push on? Either way, they use resources to keep plodding ahead (whether spells per day, or potions).

Thoughts on this? Any approaches to this I'm not seeing?

In games where healing is difficult, such as those where potions are relatively rare, scrolls almost unheard of, and wands virtually impossible to find, I would suggest ignoring the "stop at 0" thing as the cleric(s) in the party (if there are any) are already taxed with being the cure battery, which can be fun for some, but that is also one of the biggest complaints about the class (as in, "I have access to all these other spells that I never use because everyone always needs me to heal them, twice, just to get back up and running.")

In my games, I have all 0, 1st, and 2nd level spells act as RaW; the same can be said for the paladin's lay on hands. Spells of 3rd level and greater heal exactly the amount rolled, so if you're at -6 and get healed for 12, you're back to 6.

Basically, it boils down to how much resource management do you want.

I normally ignore the stop at 0 rule.

I allow even the most basic of magical healing effects to move someone from negative hp to 1hp. It is, after all, magic.

We do it by the book. The reason for this is simple: stop wading headlong into combat without accepting the risks. If a PC goes down to -X but is still alive, if you want that PC back up in the fight, it's going to cost you multiple rounds or multiple PC actions to help the fallen comrade. A big monster swipe, a dragon's tail attack, and a sword through the gut are not meant to be taken lightly. If you have 70+ HP, OK, sure you can take a few hits. If you have 10 HP or less, you better frickin' be careful.

~O

I can see your point, Omote. When I want gritty fantasy I tend to turn to WFRP 2nd ed, which is probably why I havent adopted the rule by the book like you have. I tend to use C&C for high heroic fantasy, and the way I'm doing it has worked well for our group's playstyle.

That's a good point. I do try to play a grittier sort of C&C game. While the general C&C mechanics are not really gritty at all, this particular rule is. I guess that's why I like it so much.

SIDE NOTE/OFF TOPIC ALERT!
To B-Diddy and all other Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd edition players:

WFRPG2 is very gritty and deadly. Have you found that WFRPG2 is too hard? What have you done to tone down the deadliness, particularly at lower experience totals?

The only thing that I have found that works well enough is to make small enemies (goblins, etc) or inexperienced enemies (regular townsfolk, etc.) do a d6 of damage instead of a d10. Well-trained, or man-szied monsters still do a regular d10 of damage. Though this has helped, WFRP2 is still pretty deadly.

~O

I see both Omote's and Breakdaddy's points. Both are good.

Initially, I did it more Breakdaddy's way. Healing's magic, and thus allowed to do more than mundane methods should. In my time between C&C games, however, I'm coming to like the RAW better. I think that Omote's post hits my position exactly - I think not enough consideration for their current position is taken by the players when they are losing hit points. This may be my table's problem, so it could be anecdotal. I do know that my players seem to go full-power between full HP and single-digits (it seems). I like games with "death spirals" (mechanics that represent diminished character ability the more hurt/wounded/closer to death the PC is). Star Wars Saga is one game, offhand, that has one (with its Condition Track). I like this mechanic because it gives penalties the closer to death a character becomes (or lends itself to doing that - it's theoretically possible to drop to 0 hp and still be perfect on the Condition Track). This isn't a "death spiral" by definition, but makes players think, as Omote said, or at least it should. Charging headlong into battle is fine, but the PC's should know when to retreat (if necessary).

In the end, it probably does depend a lot on what style of game you want to run and adjust the deadliness accordingly.

Omote wrote:That's a good point. I do try to play a grittier sort of C&C game. While the general C&C mechanics are not really gritty at all, this particular rule is. I guess that's why I like it so much.

SIDE NOTE/OFF TOPIC ALERT!
To B-Diddy and all other Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd edition players:

WFRPG2 is very gritty and deadly. Have you found that WFRPG2 is too hard? What have you done to tone down the deadliness, particularly at lower experience totals?

The only thing that I have found that works well enough is to make small enemies (goblins, etc) or inexperienced enemies (regular townsfolk, etc.) do a d6 of damage instead of a d10. Well-trained, or man-szied monsters still do a regular d10 of damage. Though this has helped, WFRP2 is still pretty deadly.

~O

Yeah, I agree. WFRP2 is quite deadly, especially to the rookie adventurer. I tended to give the players access to medicinal poultices and herbs that will help keep them alive but don't have much effect during active combat. This tended to have the desired effect which was to keep combat scary and deadly, but avoid excessive downtime for healing, which is boring and slows down the pace of the game too much for my taste. I cant remember exactly what the poultices did (its been a while since I played WFRP, sadly), but I want to say that they healed d5+1 wounds within d10 rounds once/day, and d5-1 wounds (minimum 1) within 1d10+3 rounds after the first use within the same 24 hour period.

It's easy to see both sides of the argument, but I tend to lean with Omote.

It is easy to remain deadly without resorting to a single HP loss. Petrification, for example. Level loss. All that kind of thing.

A few years ago, I instituted a rule where if you were below half of your HP your character would suffer a -3 to all your rolls (hits, skills, attribute checks, damage, etc). This was to make the game a bit more gritty. I used this in conjunction with the 0-HP rule discussed above. While it certainly made the game more gritty, deadly, and tough as balls, the players hated it. C&C is a high fantasy game where heroics plays an integral part of the game play process. I dropped the -3 stuff, but decreed that the 0-HP rule would remain. So far in that regard, so good.

~O

I agree "in spirit" with the 0 hit point rule, however, I also think the 0 hit point rule can kill the flow of a good story or good game. Case in point, the parties knight when down. If I did not allow the cleric to go ahead and bring him back up, he's out, and out for a while. They gotta pull out, and wait a day or two before getting back to the game. IF they use all thier healing resources, the game still grinds to a halt because now they gotta rest up so the cleric can get his spells back, unless they use all thier healing potions, but again, now they are low on those resources, all because someone got knocked into the negatives.

I don't think it "fun" for a heroic player to sit there for multiple rounds while he is KO'd. I don't think it's alway fun to have to leave the dungeon, site, ruin, whatever, to have everyone heal up and go right back in where they left off. Sure, you could throw in wandering monsters and such, but then, your storyline gets bogged down with side-encounters.

C&C is still a deadly game, even with that 0 rule removed. It's still a game where negative 10 is dead, and that's possible at any level...(one of the reasons I left 4e, the negative bloodied value was almost never a factor...players just didn't feel scared). C&C has that, regardless of healing up past 0 or not.

What is the rule for 0 level heal spells, btw?

Any healing is the specific wording?

Then bandage to 0 and cast a cure next round.

Two healing spells of any type. The first to bring to 0, then the next to bring the PCs to positive HPs.

In reponse to Lobo316's last post, I've got to tell you, that's the exact reason I do not care for 3E or 4E. There is simply no fear. I take that back, the only fear lies in if your character dies in that game that you have to make another character. Oh noes, look I have to waste half the day making a new 9th level character!

The game doesn't have to be gritty per se, but there has to be a penalty for bad rolling, bad roleplay, and stupid decisions. If you get whacked, it's because your character was a failure or you died a heroic death and will be remembered in bardic songs. The characters live the dangerous life of an adventurer. If you want relative safety, move back to your subservient life as a serf and be lucky to not get the plague.

Danger or GTFO!

~O

Omote wrote:Two healing spells of any type. The first to bring to 0, then the next to bring the PCs to positive HPs.

In reponse to Lobo316's last post, I've got to tell you, that's the exact reason I do not care for 3E or 4E. There is simply no fear. I take that back, the only fear lies in if your character dies in that game that you have to make another character. Oh noes, look I have to waste half the day making a new 9th level character!

The game doesn't have to be gritty per se, but there has to be a penalty for bad rolling, bad roleplay, and stupid decisions. If you get whacked, it's because your character was a failure or you died a heroic death and will be remembered in bardic songs. The characters live the dangerous life of an adventurer. If you want relative safety, move back to your subservient life as a serf and be lucky to not get the plague.

Danger or GTFO!

~O

Well, first let me say that I very much respect Omotes postion and his postings on these threads. Very good insite and his links to his house rule offerings are very interesting (I've even taken a few of your ideas and pulled them into my game, reworked a bit, but taken from your offerings to be sure).

That said, I cannot disagree more that there is "no fear" because of that one healing rule being changed. The game is plenty dangerous "as is". Heck, there was even fear in 3rd edition. Now, 4th, that's where I think D&D lost it. But even then, there is a world of difference between the "danger level" of 4e and C&C, regardless of which mechanic you use for healing in C&C.

At this point, I'm leaning toward changing it, but still...I do like the nature of the RAW (again, I respect your opinion, and I don't disagree with it, just wondering what the ramifications of doing it differently would be).

One player of mine suggested something interesting: In the heat of the middle of combat, heal to 0 per the RAW. Outside of combat, when the priest can concentrate fully (or, if your using a potion, when a wounded body is properly tended to, or the person drinking it is calmed down) you can heal past 0.

Thoughts on that?

I follow the rule unless the magic healing is a Cure Serious Wounds or better. Then, it heals the stated # of h.p.

First of all Lobo316, you can feel free to disagree with me as much as you want. I wouldn't expect everybody to love every aspect of how I run C&C. I mean, everybody else is wrong and they should run games like me, but none of you are perfect. I get that.

Don't get me wrong, characters should not be a dime-a-dozen, but if PCs are invading a orc stronghold, the orcs should not roll over and be an easy kill. Forget that the orcs might only be 1HD. They go after the PCs with spear and furiosity and stab the PCs until they die or die themselves. The orcs would certainly not pull away from fighting a PC just because his HP look low. There is even more incentive to kill, kill, kill.

From my perspective, the PLAYERS need to have a fear in them that there is a chance, even a good chance that their characters will die in this endeavor of adventure. If the PLAYERS ever get to the point where they hear of an adventure, and set their characters out, but do not plan, do not prepare and have absolutely no fear, what is the point? PCs have to be challanged. This can be in the form of puzzels, traps, tricks, etc. But, we all know in this game we fight monsters. The monsters should be truely frightening. Forget about how many times the PCs have killed orcs, that makes them experienced. The PCs should be frightened to encounter the snarling, cursing orc. Remember the orc is there to KILL the PC in most cases. Not hurt, not simply scare, but KILL.

~O

Arduin wrote:I follow the rule unless the magic healing is a Cure Serious Wounds or better. Then, it heals the stated # of h.p.

What level is Cure Serious Wounds? 3rd? I like that rule as well.

Another friend of mine suggested 0 level healings bring you to 0. Maybe using both of those rules together could be doable as well.

@ Omote
I mean, everybody else is wrong and they should run games like me, but none of you are perfect. I get that.
Nice!!!!

Also, to your comments. Agreed. I'm just looking at different angles of potentially running healing. I could run it either way. I'm not totally sold on changing it, yet, but certainly not opposed either. In the end, the rules are supposed to be your servant, not your master.

I do like some of the suggestions post on here. So far, I'm intrigued by Arduins CSW suggestion, and I'm also intrigued by the 0 level brings you to 0.

Th 0-level Cure Minor Wounds could be used to bring a PC back up to 0 HP. That's a pretty good idea considering that the spell, as written, is sort of useless from a pure mechanics standpoint.

~O

Lobo316 wrote:

Arduin wrote:I follow the rule unless the magic healing is a Cure Serious Wounds or better. Then, it heals the stated # of h.p.

What level is Cure Serious Wounds? 3rd? I like that rule as well.

Another friend of mine suggested 0 level healings bring you to 0. Maybe using both of those rules together could be doable as well.

Yes, it's 3dr level. I neglected the other part use. ANY lower level magic healing pops you back to 0 h.p.

Omote wrote:Two healing spells of any type. The first to bring to 0, then the next to bring the PCs to positive HPs.


~O

Hey Question, Omote, does this mean the 0 level "first aid" brings to 0 as well?

Omote wrote:Th 0-level Cure Minor Wounds could be used to bring a PC back up to 0 HP. That's a pretty good idea considering that the spell, as written, is sort of useless from a pure mechanics standpoint.

~O

Heh, just posted a question for you, guess that kinda answers it, lol!!

And, I agree, that is a pretty useless spell.

Arduin wrote:

Lobo316 wrote:

Arduin wrote:I follow the rule unless the magic healing is a Cure Serious Wounds or better. Then, it heals the stated # of h.p.

What level is Cure Serious Wounds? 3rd? I like that rule as well.

Another friend of mine suggested 0 level healings bring you to 0. Maybe using both of those rules together could be doable as well.

Yes, it's 3dr level. I neglected the other part use. ANY lower level magic healing pops you back to 0 h.p.

Cool. And I like the addition there was well.

I think I may adopt what you are doing. Any first aid and CLW to 0, CSW heals full.

Ok, out of curiosity, and related to this topic, how many of you are using spontaneous casting for healing spells?

How many make the cleric memorize (prepare) their healing spells?

Lobo316 wrote:Ok, out of curiosity, and related to this topic, how many of you are using spontaneous casting for healing spells?

How many make the cleric memorize (prepare) their healing spells?

I don't use it. The class is the 2nd most powerful as is.

Lobo316 wrote:How many make the cleric memorize (prepare) their healing spells?

*Raises hand* It's part of the strategy, if you will, for playing a cleric. If the party wants one cleric dedicated to using all of his spell slots for heals, they had better find another cleric to do all of the other neat otherworldly stuff.

~O

I like the "stop at 0" approach, as others have said, this is a dangerous profession, and there are reasons there aren't billions of level 2+ characters roaming the world...

The reasons for me are many and varied, but really it all boils down to where you consider a character to be down and out at...

For me 0hp is unconscious, negative hp means you are on deaths door... down and bleeding out, you heart quite possibly has already stopped or is at least fluttering close to a full stoppage. The first thing you have to do is that emergency triage, check the wounds, staunch the worst of them with bandages, tourniquets, or spells, make sure the heart is going and the character is breathing, basically everything a medic does. Then after you bring the PC back from the brink of death, you can begin the healing...

Arduin wrote:

Lobo316 wrote:Ok, out of curiosity, and related to this topic, how many of you are using spontaneous casting for healing spells?

How many make the cleric memorize (prepare) their healing spells?

I don't use it. The class is the 2nd most powerful as is.

I'd argue the cleric is the 4th (possibly 3rd) most powerful class in the game. But that is another topic (off I go...)