Command Spell

[Lobo316]

OK, we had an orc shaman use command on a dwarf knight in our last game. He commanded the knight to "run". The dwarf knight gets a bonus to save throws vs. fear.

Question...is that a "fear" effect or simply a "magic" effect? I don't see anything in the spell that states its a "fear" effect, but that led us to the half-elf rogue in our party commenting about how he gets bonuses vs "charm" effects. Well, command doesn't say it's a charm either.

So, how are these spells handled? Need some input from you more experienced C&C players are how these spells are classified and explained. If it's a "charm" effect, does the spell clearly state that? Any exmaples? Same question for "Fear" effects? Are they clearly specified in spells? And how doe these relate to the "command" spell?

We simply ruled that it's a "generic spell effect". The knight is not running in fear, he's running because he's compelled to do so by the spell. Is that the correct way to run that one?

[Arduin]

It isn't a "fear" spell as it isn't causing fear. More along the lines of a charm effect as it is simply compelling ANY action. No bonus.

[serleran]

You have to make judgment calls. C&C is not about detailing every possible iteration of every possible consequence to all conceivable actions. Can command be a fear-inducing spell or a charm (it may be an enchantment spell)? Sure. Was this? Not in my opinion. "Run" is not a terrifying order.

In general, I have fear spells / effects be those of a frightful nature, such as the obvious cause fear.

Charms are things like influence, charm person, suggestion, hypnotism, etc.

[Lobo316]

You have to make judgment calls. C&C is not about detailing every possible iteration of every possible consequence to all conceivable actions. Can command be a fear-inducing spell or a charm (it may be an enchantment spell)? Sure. Was this? Not in my opinion. "Run" is not a terrifying order.

In general, I have fear spells / effects be those of a frightful nature, such as the obvious cause fear.

Charms are things like influence, charm person, suggestion, hypnotism, etc.

You know, while I appreciate the flexibility of C&C, there are times that it can cause problems. LIke this for example, I would persoanlly, like an "answer" in the spell. Just a simple "this is an X effect", because once you rule something one way, you need to be consistent in doing it that way from there on it. And you can't always remember how you did something, so that leads to problems. I appreciate the freedom, but sometimes, the rules need to lay down the law, so to speak.

[Breakdaddy]

Command could not be a fear effect IMO because it is far too basic and the command cannot convey complex details or ascribe motivations to why the affected target is following the command. If you could, for example, include in the command "Theres an ancient red incoming, RUN!!!!" then yes, it's arguably a fear effect. Since there is no motivation attached to the command, it is a simple enchantment.

[serleran]

I would agree, except that command, specifically, is one of those spells with a variety of possible results. "Die!" might be a fear effect, whereas "help" could be a charm. Other single word orders may, or may not, be either or could theoretically be both. I think most the effects are obvious.

[Troll Root]

Speaking from here within the troll dens, the spell is not intended to be either fear or charm. It is a divine spell that compels the recipient to follow the command. In this instance, it is to run.

[Arduin]

You know, while I appreciate the flexibility of C&C, there are times that it can cause problems. LIke this for example, I would persoanlly, like an "answer" in the spell. Just a simple "this is an X effect", because once you rule something one way, you need to be consistent in doing it that way from there on it. And you can't always remember how you did something, so that leads to problems. I appreciate the freedom, but sometimes, the rules need to lay down the law, so to speak.

Maybe you are complicating it a bit. The spell indicates that it is a Charisma (force of personality) based save. It is a magical command to make the body perform an action. Example: if the Command had been "smile" it wouldn't make it a "happiness" based effect. The spell must list in the affirmative that it is X specific effect. Not, list that it isn't...

I hope that helps.

[Breakdaddy]

I would argue that "Die!" is not a fear effect either. You did not give the target the order "You are about to die!" which would be potentially quite frightening. You gave them the order to "Die" which is an instant effect that will put them to sleep. Now, they quite likely will be rattled upon waking, but that's less to do with the spell's effect than basic human reactions. As with any of this in-game stuff, the CK's ruling will be the final word on whether or not the effect of the spell is considered to fall under the umbrella of fear-based effects or not, but I can not personally see any compelling reason to do so myself.

[MormonYoYoMan]

I would argue that "Die!" is not a fear effect either. You did not give the target the order "You are about to die!" which would be potentially quite frightening. You gave them the order to "Die" which is an instant effect that will put them to sleep. Now, they quite likely will be rattled upon waking, but that's less to do with the spell's effect than basic human reactions. As with any of this in-game stuff, the CK's ruling will be the final word on whether or not the effect of the spell is considered to fall under the umbrella of fear-based effects or not, but I can not personally see any compelling reason to do so myself.

The proper response to Power Word: Die would be (as I ran in my Greathonk campaign) the victim turns into a giant 6-sided die.

[Breakdaddy]

I would argue that "Die!" is not a fear effect either. You did not give the target the order "You are about to die!" which would be potentially quite frightening. You gave them the order to "Die" which is an instant effect that will put them to sleep. Now, they quite likely will be rattled upon waking, but that's less to do with the spell's effect than basic human reactions. As with any of this in-game stuff, the CK's ruling will be the final word on whether or not the effect of the spell is considered to fall under the umbrella of fear-based effects or not, but I can not personally see any compelling reason to do so myself.

The proper response to Power Word: Die would be (as I ran in my Greathonk campaign) the victim turns into a giant 6-sided die.

[serleran]

I would argue that "Die!" is not a fear effect either.

Nor would I, and not for the reasons cited, but the option is present regardless. I would rather the rules do not attempt to lasso the game as it starts to remove, or could, the creative uses and applications of things.

[AGNKim]

One of the best things a low-level cleric can learn is how to say 'masturbate' in orcish. The Command spell become hilarious at that point.

[Omote]

I guess in Kim's game, you'd better bring a towel. If there's a LARPing of your games, YOU ARE THE MAN!

~O

[Lobo316]

Thanks for the replies gang, I think it sounds like most are in agreement, this is nothing more than a spell effect that compels the target to do something. The knight in this case ran, because the magic caused him to be compelled to run, not because he was afraid.

Nor is it a charm, for the same reason. You are compelled to do something, your not being subject to a "charm" that mind controls you or something.

BTW, YoYOman and Break Daddy...too dang funny!

And AGN...gross....just.....gross. I mean, orc...bad enough....orc doing......"stuff"...just nasty!

[redwullf]

You know, while I appreciate the flexibility of C&C, there are times that it can cause problems. LIke this for example, I would persoanlly, like an "answer" in the spell. Just a simple "this is an X effect", because once you rule something one way, you need to be consistent in doing it that way from there on it. And you can't always remember how you did something, so that leads to problems. I appreciate the freedom, but sometimes, the rules need to lay down the law, so to speak.

Embrace the lack of rules! Are you the CK in the game? If so, just use your best judgement and make rulings in these cases, rather than worrying about the rules. And, if you're worried about consistency, keep a list of your rulings. This will become your House Rules document (or at least a section of it).

If you're not the CK, then don't sweat the details and let him or her worry about it.

[Omote]

Embrace the lack of rules! Are you the CK in the game? If so, just use your best judgement and make rulings in these cases, rather than worrying about the rules. And, if you're worried about consistency, keep a list of your rulings. This will become your House Rules document (or at least a section of it).

Yes. YES. YES! One of the reasons I love C&C is because the game is not bare-bones with regards to rules. But, C&C is still pretty rules lite when compared to many games of the past 20 years. C&C gives you a good tool to make rulings and checks: the Siege Engine. With this, you can really make up rules/decisions on the fly, usually with a simple check of the d20 roll. From the C&C base rules, and with the utility of the Siege Engine, you can extrapolate a lot without having hundreds of pages of rules bloat. It's intuitive!

~O

[Lobo316]

Thanks again for the replies gang. I think I'm happy with the way I ruled it, and it reflects most of what you guys are saying.