Shurikens/Chinese stars - damage?

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:30 am

Very cool, I just got one in the mail to have some fun with and I must say, they are superb and accurate for throwing.

I've collected throwing knives and hatchets for years and have become somewhat proficient at throwing stuff while engaged with a foil (I'm a natural lefty but do more things with my right hand - foil right/throw left).

Anywho, the 3.5 PH says 1D2 and the AD&D Oriental Adventures book says 1D6 for damage. I tried side arm, underarm and straight down (like a dagger/throwing knife) and they are nicely balanced and stick very easily. I can see putting a razor edge on them and doing, maybe a D6 with a STR mod on BtD. I'm going to order more to see how one can throw 2 or more at a time.

Thoughts?

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:56 am

Its been years since I have played around with any, but I would say about half of what a knife would do, since it/they don't penetrate nearly as deeply, and have to hit where important things are near the surface to really mess someone up.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:31 pm

Useless against an armored opponent, unless they can strike a very vulnerable spot, so I'd say... something like: 1d6 - AC bonus (magic not applied) + Strength bonus since it is a thrown weapon; damage, in this case, may be reduced to zero. So, for example, anyone wearing plate mail (+7 AC) cannot be harmed by a shuriken unless the thrower has a +2 (or greater) Strength bonus (6 max - 7 +2 = 1).

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:19 pm

serleran wrote:
Useless against an armored opponent, unless they can strike a very vulnerable spot, so I'd say... something like: 1d6 - AC bonus (magic not applied) + Strength bonus since it is a thrown weapon; damage, in this case, may be reduced to zero. So, for example, anyone wearing plate mail (+7 AC) cannot be harmed by a shuriken unless the thrower has a +2 (or greater) Strength bonus (6 max - 7 +2 = 1).

I like this.

I would keep it simple and just give them a damage range of 1-3 plus strength.
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:10 pm

Quote:
I would keep it simple and just give them a damage range of 1-3 plus strength.

It makes sense.
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:47 pm

I think Oriental Adventures set 'em at 1d4. Possibily 1d3 like a dart. I'd have to check to be sure. In C&C they'd also get a strength bonus if any.

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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:53 pm

serleran wrote:
So, for example, anyone wearing plate mail (+7 AC) cannot be harmed by a shuriken unless the thrower has a +2 (or greater) Strength bonus (6 max - 7 +2 = 1).

I'd probably rule a roll of a natural 20 would result in full damage because it found a c*i*k in the armor.

This rule, though, reminds me of armor as damage reduction.

Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:49 pm

Dristram wrote:
This rule, though, reminds me of armor as damage reduction.

I thought that also, and if it worked that way for shuriken then why not for other weapons as well.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:41 am

miller6 wrote:
I think Oriental Adventures set 'em at 1d4. Possibily 1d3 like a dart. I'd have to check to be sure. In C&C they'd also get a strength bonus if any.

Brian Miller

Yes a small star. Good point. A large star is 1D6. The one I have is 4" end to end. The OA doesn't seem to define the size, or I'm not seeing it. The one I have looks larger than many that I've seen online. Mebbe a CK call.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:43 am

serleran wrote:
Useless against an armored opponent, unless they can strike a very vulnerable spot, so I'd say... something like: 1d6 - AC bonus (magic not applied) + Strength bonus since it is a thrown weapon; damage, in this case, may be reduced to zero. So, for example, anyone wearing plate mail (+7 AC) cannot be harmed by a shuriken unless the thrower has a +2 (or greater) Strength bonus (6 max - 7 +2 = 1).

Very good. Same logic/interpretation for a thrown dagger?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:26 am

I would say: it depends on the dagger. If it is an actual dagger, which is to say, an average, double-edged, 5-8" blade, than no. If, however, it is more like a throwing knife (what is commonly called a throwing dagger these days, such as the slim versions easily found in a military surplus store) than yes. Alternatively, a weapon like a hunga-munga (and African throwing bladed weapon) should probably do something like a flat d6 + Strength, or the equivalent of a thrown short sword. Small hatchets (not hand axes) or tomahawks would be similar as well, though you can easily change the base die around, so that a knife, for example, does d4 modified as noted, and the axe variety does d8 or whatever you feel is right.

I'd use the armor mod for damage as it guarantees that a heavily armored person will suffer little damage when struck by such small weapons, rather than there still existing a chance of taking more, which is the case of using the smaller die type as Maliki mentioned. That works, though, if you'd rather have damage indicate the "lethality" rather than the attack roll, since the latter simply determines a successful strike.

Other weapons, like a two-handed sword, or a short sword, or whatever, are designed with armor in mind and therefore do not suffer damage reduction from someone wearing it. In fact, one might argue that wearing armor actually makes the damage worse, in some cases, like a person in plate smacked in the head by a mace (deafness, concussion, temporary blindness, unconsciousness... all common side effects.) Some weapons, like a battle axe or pick specificially, are "can openers" and are extremely good at getting through the thick layers of plate and chain... so instead of making a weapon vs. AC chart, its generally simpler to just have most weapons do what they do, but change slightly one aspect to make variety; in this case, we can make the very small (less damage area weapons) factor in the armor worn.

Anything that works for your group though is what is best.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:00 am

I like your reasoning Serl. I may apply that to rapiers vs. armor as well.

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:42 am

I would say 1d3 with a +3 to hit vs unarmored foes. This would make them more useful in an oriental setting where armor is not quite as common. Otherwise, why not just use a dagger?

Maybe -1 damage per ac over 13 (not counting dex.)

Just a couple ideas.
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:45 am

Hmm, multiple throws per round for stars and daggers - a la OA.
I guess the reason I'm interested in this ability and the character type who would utilize these weapons/damage is, I'm thinking of introducing an NPC who is totally foreign to our campaign world, but one who the players will recognize and enjoy.
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BASH MAN · Post by **BASH MAN** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:20 am

Treebore wrote:
Its been years since I have played around with any, but I would say about half of what a knife would do, since it/they don't penetrate nearly as deeply, and have to hit where important things are near the surface to really mess someone up.

I agree, however serl's solution to this, while good, is too "rules heavy" for my own taste.

I would just do base of 1pt +STR bonus = die type of damage (w/out str bonus).

So if you have 18 STR, that is a +3 bonus. 1+3= 4, so you do a d4 dmg with shurikens (don't add str to it).

If you have a 16-17 STR, it is a d3 with shurikens, and if you have a 13-15 it is a d2 dmg. If you have no STR bonus, or a STR penalty, you just do 1 point of damage from 1 shuriken.

However, I would do like they did in 3.0 and allow you to throw 3 shuriken at once. So the guy with 18 STR could throw 3 shuriken, and if all of them hit, would do 3d4 dmg to the victim!
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:19 am

I'd probably stick with 1d3+STR Mod.

It's not quite as potentially effective as a dagger but, I'd adopt the possiblility of throwing multiple ones at once. I'd have the range increment be twice that of a dagger.

In terms of effectiveness against armor, I have to agree with Bash Man... there is elegance with simplicity! But, if you did want to have some sort of mechanic to account for armor (and keep it simple) go for a basic damage reduction model.

Something like a 2 reduction on HEAVY armor, a 1 reduction for MEDIUM armor, none for LIGHT. That way, it might be easier to track.

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:50 am

I don't see how a subtraction is "rules heavy." But, if something else is easier, use that. Funny, though, that the debate that "no one should ever have to not add" always gets lumped into the "its too hard of a rule" category.
Hell, its an addition... of a penalty.
Oh well.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:24 pm

serleran wrote:
I don't see how a subtraction is "rules heavy." But, if something else is easier, use that. Funny, though, that the debate that "no one should ever have to not add" always gets lumped into the "its too hard of a rule" category.
Hell, its an addition... of a penalty.
Oh well.

It probably doesn't help that I was catching up on the thread VERY early in the AM either. lol

M
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