Good starvation rules?

[Ozreth]

Trying to add some starvation effects to my game and figure I'll just use the 3.5 rules. Couldn't find any mention of it in the AD&D 1 or 2 DMG's, which surprised me.

Anyways, the 3.5 version is as follows:

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

I figured in C&C the DC would be 17 or 23. Sometimes the 12 and 18 thing sure makes things awkward :p
I would also probably change it to 1d4 since C&C/AD&D PC's are a bit weaker than in 3e.

[koralas]

This should be a Constitution save modified by the duration of the withholding and other external factors. I have been working on starvation and dehydration and right now it is a work in progress, but I have come up with -

The base modifiers I would place at -

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Starvation:  +1 every 3 days
Dehydration: +2 every 1 day

Temperature effects on the modifier -

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Temperature     Starvation    Dehydration
   130              +2            +6
   120              +1            +5
   110              +1            +4
   100               -            +3
    90               -            +2
    80               -            +1
    30              +1            +1
    20              +1            +2
    10              +2            +3
     0              +2            +4
   -10              +3            +5
   -20              +3            +6

Wind conditions in hot and cold weather will increase the modifier by +1 for every 10mph.
High humidity increases the apparent temperature, but will negate the wind modifier when the "feels like" temperature is less than 110 degrees.

Exertion will also bring modifiers -

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Complete rest:  -2
Light activity (walking < 5 miles/day):  -1
Moderate activity (walking < 10 miles/day, spell casting <= 2nd level):  -
Active (walking > 15 miles/day, spell casting >= 3rd level): +1
Highly active (walking > 20 miles/day, physical labor):  +2
Very high activity (walking >25 miles/day, combat): +3

Note some people don't like to use negative modifiers on the challenge base, if that is the case, the negative numbers become positive modifiers to the character's die roll.

Effects of starvation can vary widely, but many fall into these categories, progressively getting worse -

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Weakness:  -1 Str
Confusion:  -1 Int/Wis
Diarrhea:  -1 Con (+2 cumulative on dehydration checks)
Irritability:  -1 Cha
Bad Decision Making
Immune Deficiency:  -1 Con

Advanced Starvation:
Organs begin to shutdown (-1 to all attributes)
Hallucinations
Convulsions
Muscle Spasms
Irregular Heatbeat

Effects from dehydration can include -

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Lack of Saliva:  +1 cumulative on Starvation checks
Dry and Sunken eyes:  -4 to any hand/eye coordination or visual acuity tests
Rapid Heartbeat:  -2 Con, -2 Str, Exhaustion
Lack of Sweat:  Worsen heat category by 2 (i.e. 90 degrees is treated as 110)
Lethargy:  -3 Con, -3 Str, -3 Dex, Extreme Exhaustion
Irritability:  -3 Cha
Vomiting:  -3 Con, +3 cumulative on dehydration and starvation checks
Diarrhea:  -3 Con, +3 cumulative on dehydration checks 
Shock:  -1 to all abilities every 10 minutes

The amount of rations you receive can modify the check as well -

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100% rations:  +10
 75% rations:    +7
 50% rations:    +4
 25% rations:    +1

All effects are cumulative and applied on the days a Con check is failed.

If any ability score reaches negative numbers, the character dies.

Each day of starvation or dehydration the character temporarily reduces his max HP by 1, each failed check reduces max hp by 1d4, if suffering both cases, subtract another 1 hp/day. If the character reaches -1 or lower max hp, the character dies.

Recovery:
After one full week of rehydration, all effects of dehydration are removed.

Each week of receiving food rations, once full ration intake is restored, will remove 2 points of ability score damage.

Note that if no food rations have been received for >10 days, the food rations must be slowly metered and increased. Rations may be safely increased at the rate of 20%/week, any faster and the character must make an additional Con check with an additional -5 modifier or vomit up the food, taking 1d6 damage for each 5% of the ration size over the current safe limit, no healing of the effects of starvation are applied that week.

[Ozreth]

Wow. While I admire your work and would find it useful in some games I think it's just a bit too much for my games. Between monster tables, hexes, npcs, weather tables etc I've already got enough to keep track of : )

[Arduin]

Nice tables. But, for me, there are simply too many variables to use tables. I just use best judgement and adjudicate.

[Ozreth]

I got some good suggestions over at dragonsfoot:

In WG4 - the Lost Temple of Tharidzun, there were simple rules for starvation - 1 hp lost for every 8 hours, 1 Str and 1 Dex for every full day without food.

C&C flavoured suggestion.

After 48 hours without food, make con save each day or lose a HP. +1 CL for each day without food, cumulative (eg C 5 after 5 days).

Yes, extraordinary individuals might go months without food this way (it has happened before. In fact an obese scottish man once went over a year without food (in hospital, under medical supervision. Just water & vitamin injections). Then again, babies & the weak/wounded might die within a few days.

Page 50 of the Wilderness Survival Guide

I've still gotta check that last one out haha.

[MormonYoYoMan]

Maybe Sir Ironsides' NPC, Barnaby P. Molecramp, could use these rules?

[CKDad]

Do you have a copy of the old Avalon Hill game "Outdoor Survival"? Waaay back in the dark ages, the rules actually recommended using that game to simulate survival simulations, and if memory serves, it's got great and simple rules for handling this.

I think I still have a copy - will try to dig it out.

[TheMetal1]

Nice tables. But, for me, there are simply too many variables to use tables. I just use best judgement and adjudicate.

Seems like a lot, but koralas base formula is pretty simple, and makes rulings a lot quicker. Do a CON Save after 3 days starting with a CL: 1 and adding 1 every 3 days. For Dehyration, do a CON Save every day starting with CL: 2 adding 1 every day. I like it actually.

I've been tinkering with survival/dehydration rules based on survival training, books on fasting and survival and personal experience. Let me know what you think. Though part of me really does like the simplicity of the base saves above and using just those (probably with some modifications).

DEHYDRATION

3 days (72 hours) is the max you can go without water. 'cause going without water really sucks.

Day 1: Save vs. Dehydration (CON)(Challenge Level: 5) or fall unconscious.
Day 2: Save vs. Dehydration (CON)(Challenge Level: 10) or fall unconscious.
Day 3: Save vs. Dehydration (CON)(Challenge Level: 15) or fall unconscious.


If you fall unconscious your next save is save vs. Dehydration or die.
If you save, you face a -3 to all ability checks, cumulative.

Day 4 and beyond.
Save vs. Dehydration (CON)(Challenge Level: 20) or Die. Each additional day add 5 to the Challenge Level.



STARVATION

40 days is the max one can go without food.

03 days without food: -1 to all ability checks
10 days without food: -2 to all ability checks
20 days without food: -4 to all ability checks
10 days without food: -6 to all ability checks
40 days without food: -8 to all ability checks

41 days or more
Save vs. Starvation (Challenge Level: 10) or lose 1 point of Strength and Constitution and 2 Hit Points until they fall unconscious or fall below 0 in one of their abilities. Add +1 to the Challenge Level for each additional day.

Note: In regards to using the 40 days as max. I'm just basing this off a 40 day fast. Lots of people do this actually, especially in religious circles, without a doctors supervision. There is a noticeable energy drain though without food after so many days, but I've talked with a lot of folks who feel better after they've been fasting for some time - especially after the first 3 or 4 days. Since this is a game, and not a religious or health experience I want add some penalty for not eating but still adventuring, hence the ability penalty verse a hit point drain. After 41 is when the real penalties kick in. This adds in, I think, a nice spread of another 10 to 20 days based on the adventurer's ability scores and hit points before things get really bad.

As far as dehydration, going without water for just one day really sucks, you can still function, but you won't be doing a whole lot without some sort of pain.

If you're both starving and dehydrating, these effects are cumulative.

[Volomyre]

You could also check out the D&D Rules Cyclopedia for some simpler rules. The system you want to use doesn't seem bad. I would throw in some mods kinda like the encumbrance penalties and be done with it.

[Lord Dynel]

I second the Rules Cyclopedia rules. Very simple, yet very effective.

[TheMetal1]

You could also check out the D&D Rules Cyclopedia for some simpler rules. The system you want to use doesn't seem bad. I would throw in some mods kinda like the encumbrance penalties and be done with it.

I second the Rules Cyclopedia rules. Very simple, yet very effective.

umm...unlike some of us here on the boards who have 12 copies (I'm talking to you Omote!) ( ) I do not own a single copy. Can you all elaborate on what the rules are?

[Volomyre]

I was fortunate enough to get a copy before the great Omote raid of the 90's.
Being a noob I am not sure how much I can quote or what ever so I am just gonna toss some numbers out here:
These effects begin after 1 full day without food or water.
Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.
Also depending on a % of hp loss to starvation/dehydration see the encumbrance penalty rules of the CnC phb.
up to 1/4 use no penalty
1/4 to 1/2 use light effects.
ect ect.
I would penalize all attr. checks, not just physical, but thats me.
The RC also mentions needing more hours per day of rest. Anywhere from 6 - 12 hrs. No long days for the starving I guess.
It doesn't state how long it takes the PC's to recover so I guess after 1 full day of rest, food and drink.
Hope that helps.
Volo.

[serleran]

I dunno. I'd be tempted to consider something like this, but only if I wanted really lethal games.

Divide Constitution by 6, and add +2 if the character has Constitution Prime, is a ranger, barbarian, half-orc, dwarf, druid, monk, cleric of nature, has a survival skill of some sort, or requires less consumption than normal (perhaps by magic or effect); a halfling should get a -2. This number is how many days of starvation may be endured before death becomes possible; divide it by two for the number of days dehydration may persist. The above modifier may be applied, with discretion, for each of the conditions provided.

After a time has passed equal to one of the thresholds, the character must make a Constitution save or die. The difficulty of this begins at 0. The next day, add a difficulty of 2, and then double it each day thereafter so that day two is a +2 difficulty, day 3 is +8 (add 2 and double), day
three is +20 and so forth. If both starvation and dehydration are in effect, add +4 to the difficulty but do not factor that into the doubling. If the character survives, they are at a penalty on all checks equal to the difficulty overcome except when checking against itself (so that the penalty does not re-double.)

Eating or drinking triple full daily rations knocks a day off the accumulation but consuming minimum merely halts it -- that is, the next day does not gain the aggregated difficulty modifier.

It is certainly acceptable to modify days to another measurement of time, such as weeks or months, and may be more realistic to do so for starvation.

[Ozreth]

Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.

My guess is I'm not rolling 1d4, 1d6, or 1d8, but deciding which number suits the players level? Otherwise rolling any one of those dice means that a single day without food could simply kill a level 1 character, which is nuts :p

[TheMetal1]

was fortunate enough to get a copy before the great Omote raid of the 90's.

Yeah, I was quite starved for rules back then..

These effects begin after 1 full day without food or water.
Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.

Interesting take. I'm thinking this was done, in part to insure that money was being spent on Waterskins and Iron Rations. It gets the job done, but whoa to those who don't have a large backpack and are somewhere deep in a Castle Zagyg, Castle Whiterock or Worlds Largest Dungeon, etc....

[Volomyre]

I guess it can be a bit deadly, those aren't even the actual numbers. The dice for "no water" and "both" are actually higher. Im my humble opinion the PC's shouldn't figure on weeks in a cave anyhow. A day or two in, then out to resupply. Rangers are pretty handy for this. Most PC's can forage at least for themselves. Not all humanoids eat elves and humans, some have livestock or foodstuff taken from the "good" races so there is that to consider too. If all else fails, slice up that shrieker and have a shroom bbq.

[DeadReborn]

There's always resorting to cannibalism.

[Arduin]

These effects begin after 1 full day without food or water.
Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.

?? So those rules have ~50% of people dying after 2 days without food & water?

[MormonYoYoMan]

These effects begin after 1 full day without food or water.
Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.

?? So those rules have at ~50% of people dying after 2 days without food & water?

In early Traveller, one had about the same chance of dying after two days without money!

[Arduin]

These effects begin after 1 full day without food or water.
Each day
no food 1-4 dam
no water 1-6 dam
both 1-8 dam
No saves involved.

?? So those rules have at ~50% of people dying after 2 days without food & water?

In early Traveller, one had about the same chance of dying after two days without money!

While in Low Berth

[koralas]

?? So those rules have ~50% of people dying after 2 days without food & water?

Dying in two days without any water intake is not unheard of, a single day without could also cause death depending on other factors.

I much prefer ability damage and other problems over hp damage for dehydration especially, but also for starvation. Regardless of whether HP or ability damage, it should not be able to be healed but for the consumption of food and water over time (spells such as wish can heal this damage, but you'd probably be better off using that wish for other things that will help quite a bit more...). Dehydration will kill you much more quickly than starvation, and it is much easier to bounce back from as well.

Also, problems occurring from starvation and dehydration are not based on the amount of experience you have. If you are starving or dehydrated there is nothing you can do outside of eating and/or drinking to stave off the effects, thus HP is a bad method of tracking the problem. High stamina, health, and physical prowess will help in these areas, more so for starvation than dehydration. Also the amount of fat on a person will dramatically improve survivability in the early stages of starvation, the more fat the better in this case.

The average person can survive without water 3-5 days in ideal conditions without any exertion. Healthier people may live a day or two longer, fat contains a smaller volume of water when compared to lean tissues, but large quantities can help sustain a person for perhaps an additional day, though this is negated by temperatures over 85 degrees due to it's insulating effects, and any physical exertion will likewise negate this.

There are no real averages on the duration that people can survive with starvation, Ghandi fasted for 21 days while in his 70's, While Thomas McElwee, an IRA prisoner, was on a hunger strike and survived 73 days. Others that were in prison also died, the second longest died the week before.

The rules I put above are really guidelines, not necessarily meant to be tables to adhered to in every situation, but rather give ideas and some level of codification to the concept. I am lucky to have a very good memory and tend to keep most of those things in mind, heck I think I can still rattle off the 1st Ed. To Hit charts by class, level, and AC.

[Arduin]

Dying in two days without any water intake is not unheard of, a single day without could also cause death depending on other factors.

No, not unheard of but, VERY rare. Not ANYWHERE near 50% of the population. Hence, those rules are fairly useless....

[Volomyre]

So, maybe, :
No food 1hp per day
No water 2 hp per day
Both 3 hp per day
???

[CKDad]

Couldn't locate my old Outdoor Survival box last night but here's the nutshell version based on my probably imperfect recollection:

Food and water were tracked separately - literally, you had a card that had a track for water and one for food. For each day without one or the other, you moved the counter along the track. Your ability to move - both in distance traveled, but also in your ability to choose direction - was reduced as your condition deteriorated. You recovered for every day you had adequate water & food, though I don't recall the details.

You took a hit for every day without water, with death coming at day 6 or so I believe. The effects of lack of food increased as you went without - no impact for the first 2 or 3 days, to a point for every day. Death from lack of food took about 10 days.

The game included all sorts of positive and negative random events, from finding forageable food to suffering a fall and incurring a mobility-impairing injury.

Speaking game-wise, I would probably impose attribute reductions for each day without food and/or water, with death coming once you hit zero CON, rather than hit point loss (though perhaps couple that in). Other stats would suffer reductions as well.

[Breakdaddy]

You can last 3 MINUTES without air.

If you are taking a scuba trip, you will want to pack plenty of air tanks for you and those traveling with you for the number of hours you wish to be under water. Another thing to consider is your altitude. Are you going to be high in the mountains where breathing could become a problem? Consider where you will be going and determine if sufficient air/oxygen would be present. If not, plan on how you will be provided with the amount of air you will need.

You can last 3 HOURS without shelter.

If you’re hiking (or lost) and the sun is about to set, you want to make sure you have a good shelter to protect you from the cold. Make it just large enough to accommodate you and not much else. This is important, especially in cold climates, because your body heat may well have to heat it. Be extremely careful if you are going to use fire to heat the shelter, as most natural shelter materials are flammable! Plan ahead, and use common sense. If you are hiking in a desert, you’ll want a shelter to provide shade.

Most of the time, though, you’ll be trying to keep warm. Use everything you can think of for insulation. Crawling inside a big pile of leaves or pine needles is actually pretty warm and comfortable (do not attempt this near a fire). A large pile of fresh pine sprigs is not only a springy mattress, but is good insulation from the ground.

You can last 3 DAYS without water.

While you may be able to last three days without water, you will start to feel the effects of dehydration after only 12 hours or so. Your brain is made up of 70% water and will not think clearly without plenty of water. It is important to know ahead of time the kinds of water supplies you will have at the location you will be at. Is there a stream running through? Will you have to take water purifying items? Will you have to carry all of your water in with you?

You must drink plenty of water even if you do not feel thirsty. An adult should drink at least a couple of liters per day (more in hot climates). If you spent the night on high ground, then plan on moving camp. In most areas, just continue to walk downhill and you will eventually find water. Watch animals or follow their tracks. They will usually lead to water. Birds also tend to congregate near water. In dry areas, you may have to consider other means, such as a solar still. If you are getting water from streams or ponds, boil before drinking, or use water purification tablets or straw.

You can last 3 WEEKS without food.

Many people make food their priority. Even though your stomach may be growling of hunger, your body can last much longer without food than without water or shelter. Only after taking care of those needs first, should you worry about food. Will you be able to catch your food from the rivers or streams? Will there be game for you to hunt? Or will you carry all of your food with you? What about pots and pans? Will you have a stove to cook on or will you cook over a fire? Your camping location will determine what options you have for food. You will also want to consider dishwashing liquid, SOS pads, grill scrapers, aluminum foil, etc. Camping is more tolerable when your hunger cries are answered with enough food to sustain your activities.

With that being said, if you find yourself in an unplanned situation where you need to rely on your surroundings for food, as a general rule, avoid plant life unless you know for a fact that something is edible. Stay away from mushrooms and any plant that has a milky sap. Common edible plants include cattail roots, acorns, clover, dandelions, almost all grasses that are seed bearing and the inner bark of trees such as Poplar, Willows, Birches and Conifers.

The easiest rule to remember is that if it walks, swims, crawls, or slithers… thump it, and muck it on down! Small animals, fish and insect life are always your best bet (remember, do not eat spiders or anything else with more than 6 legs). Use the knife, hooks and line, make a spear, make snares with the 80lb test cord. Setting multiple snares and fishing lines in ways that you do not have to baby-sit them is a good idea. Check them from time to time for a catch. This allows you to “hunt” without expending much energy. Use your imagination! The facts are, ALL fur bearing animals are edible. ALL birds are edible with no exceptions. Grubs found in rotten logs are edible, as are almost all insects (6 legs).

[MormonYoYoMan]

You can last 10 HOURS without something fannish. Whether that's RPGs, comics, Old Time Radio, fantasy, or sf -- it's a well-documented fact that no fan can live longer than TEN HOURS without one of these.

While you may be able to last ten hours without fandom, you will start to feel the effects of deprivation after three hours, and will begin to daydream. After four hours, if you don't take a break for lunch, you may begin to fantasize. After six hours, your keyboard will begin to take on the appearance of a starship navigation input device. After 7.5 hours, the soda machine will appear to be a chainmail bikini-wearing redhead. On your way home, after nine hours, and aren't listening to something fannish, you'll attempt to read a comic book or play a portable game while driving.

[Breakdaddy]

You can last 10 HOURS without something fannish. Whether that's RPGs, comics, Old Time Radio, fantasy, or sf -- it's a well-documented fact that no fan can live longer than TEN HOURS without one of these.

While you may be able to last ten hours without fandom, you will start to feel the effects of deprivation after three hours, and will begin to daydream. After four hours, if you don't take a break for lunch, you may begin to fantasize. After six hours, your keyboard will begin to take on the appearance of a starship navigation input device. After 7.5 hours, the soda machine will appear to be a chainmail bikini-wearing redhead. On your way home, after nine hours, and aren't listening to something fannish, you'll attempt to read a comic book or play a portable game while driving.

BLOOP!

[Volomyre]

How many HP is that?

[MormonYoYoMan]

How many HP is that?

During the first ten hours, one loses only Sanity Points, at the rate 2 ponts the first hour, then squared every 90 minutes thereafter. At the end of ten hours, you lose the will to live, an dthus all hit points at once.

[serleran]

Couldn't locate my old Outdoor Survival box last night but here's the nutshell version based on my probably imperfect recollection:

If you want, I can dig mine out and take a look. Won't be until at least Monday though.