Finding Traps

[Lobo316]

How does a rogue find magical traps? Example, with the fire trap example I was chatting about in another thread, how does a rogue notice such a trap? What does he look for? How does he disable it?

[redwullf]

Funny you should ask, because we recently had this discussion/debate in my Pathfinder game. The rules allow a Rogue to identify and disable a magical trap just as if it were any other mechanical trap. Naturally, this raises some interesting questions, not the least of which is, "Umm...how?"

At any rate, we landed on making the assumption that the rogue has some sort of innate magic ability (or at least supernatural ability) that allows him to accomplish such a task. Call it a sixth sense to detect it, and an ability to "ruin" whatever sigils or other arcane "identifiers" are in place that would disable the trap.

This one's more of a subjective matter and I've decided to simply leave it to myself (as the GM) to determine how this is defined and described.

[ThrorII]

I would say that a rogue has some knowledge in arcane matters. They can find and disable magical traps, and can read arcane script (albeit both with difficulty).

As to "how" the rogue finds and disables the magic trap, I'd say that a magical trap has some sort of glyph or such placed on a location. The rogue finds the glyph etched/drawn/glowing rune at the location, and recognizes it for what it is (in basics--"a trap"). The rogue has some skill in disarming the glyph (scratching it out, erasing it, or making a counter-glyph, or whatever).

That's how I'd rule it, anyway.

[ThrorII]

funny, I never thought of it this way: Rogues are a specialized player character class, more so than just a common burglar or thug. They have some arcane knowledge. Who might think that rogues are actually those thrown out of acrane learning circles (covens, sorcerous societies, aprenticeships) and disgraced; and now make their livelyhood the only way they can.

[Lobo316]

I would say that a rogue has some knowledge in arcane matters. They can find and disable magical traps, and can read arcane script (albeit both with difficulty).

As to "how" the rogue finds and disables the magic trap, I'd say that a magical trap has some sort of glyph or such placed on a location. The rogue finds the glyph etched/drawn/glowing rune at the location, and recognizes it for what it is (in basics--"a trap"). The rogue has some skill in disarming the glyph (scratching it out, erasing it, or making a counter-glyph, or whatever).

That's how I'd rule it, anyway.

I can buy this easily enough, however check this out, straight from the description of Fire Trap....

To cast the spell the caster needs fragments of flint and a stick of charcoal, the latter used to draw around the closure, the former scattered over it, this process leaves no visible runes.

Now, personally, I can disregard that and place a mark something there, but really what can a rogue possibley be looking for to detect a magic trap?

[Lobo316]

funny, I never thought of it this way: Rogues are a specialized player character class, more so than just a common burglar or thug. They have some arcane knowledge. Who might think that rogues are actually those thrown out of acrane learning circles (covens, sorcerous societies, aprenticeships) and disgraced; and now make their livelyhood the only way they can.

I like this flavor, this does make for some interesting possibilities.

[Lobo316]

Funny you should ask, because we recently had this discussion/debate in my Pathfinder game. The rules allow a Rogue to identify and disable a magical trap just as if it were any other mechanical trap. Naturally, this raises some interesting questions, not the least of which is, "Umm...how?"

At any rate, we landed on making the assumption that the rogue has some sort of innate magic ability (or at least supernatural ability) that allows him to accomplish such a task. Call it a sixth sense to detect it, and an ability to "ruin" whatever sigils or other arcane "identifiers" are in place that would disable the trap.

This one's more of a subjective matter and I've decided to simply leave it to myself (as the GM) to determine how this is defined and described.

I've thought of that as well Redwulf, some sort of affinity to magic. I mean, after all, this is a world where magic is real, maybe even common place, who knows.

I've also thought about some specialized items they may have in thier thieves tools that allows for this. Maybe some dust that changes color when sprinkle over an area where a magic trap has been laid. Various charcoles or inks that can be embedded into the rune to disable it, some type of wire or putty that acts as a "conduit" so that the spell is fooled into thinking it's still operational. Who knows.

And here's another thing...how much harder is it to detect a magic trap? The CKG says it's based on the level of the spell, but the PHB states that it "can be more difficult" so detect a magic trap?

[redwullf]

I've thought of that as well Redwulf, some sort of affinity to magic. I mean, after all, this is a world where magic is real, maybe even common place, who knows.

I've also thought about some specialized items they may have in thier thieves tools that allows for this. Maybe some dust that changes color when sprinkle over an area where a magic trap has been laid. Various charcoles or inks that can be embedded into the rune to disable it, some type of wire or putty that acts as a "conduit" so that the spell is fooled into thinking it's still operational. Who knows.

And here's another thing...how much harder is it to detect a magic trap? The CKG says it's based on the level of the spell, but the PHB states that it "can be more difficult" so detect a magic trap?

I don't have the material in front of me, but If the CKG says it's base on the level of the spell, then (to me) that says the Challenge Level (CL) should equal the spell level.

[Arduin]

To cast the spell the caster needs fragments of flint and a stick of charcoal, the latter used to draw around the closure, the former scattered over it, this process leaves no visible runes.

Now, personally, I can disregard that and place a mark something there, but really what can a rogue possibley be looking for to detect a magic trap?

No visible RUNES. However, it doesn't say no visible anything... Fragments of flint scattered about in a circle is a clue...

[Lobo316]

To cast the spell the caster needs fragments of flint and a stick of charcoal, the latter used to draw around the closure, the former scattered over it, this process leaves no visible runes.

Now, personally, I can disregard that and place a mark something there, but really what can a rogue possibley be looking for to detect a magic trap?

No visible RUNES. However, it doesn't say no visible anything... Fragments of flint scattered about in a circle is a clue...

I can buy this except.....what how long do those things hang around? What if you are exploring a tomb that 500 years old? That fragment of flint may no longer be there.

[Arduin]

I can buy this except.....what how long do those things hang around? What if you are exploring a tomb that 500 years old? That fragment of flint may no longer be there.

That goes to the question of how the trap would be disabled. Does removing all the fragments disarm it? ... Remember, it says "no visible runes (letters)" It doesn't say no visible trace of anything... It obviously has some visible clue, no matter how small or, otherwise it couldn't be detected. Also, who says that the magic doesn't hold those tiny chips on the trap until sprung?

[Lobo316]

I can buy this except.....what how long do those things hang around? What if you are exploring a tomb that 500 years old? That fragment of flint may no longer be there.

That goes to the question of how the trap would be disabled. Does removing all the fragments disarm it? ... Remember, it says "no visible runes (letters)" It doesn't say no visible trace of anything... It obviously has some visible clue, no matter how small or, otherwise it couldn't be detected. Also, who says that the magic doesn't hold those tiny chips on the trap until sprung?

Well, first, realize I am playing a little bit of "devils advocate" here. I "want" there to be something for the rouge to go on, but it's just not really clear (as Redwulf said) "how" he does this.

I can go with what you are suggesting, plus any other number of rationalizations, including some innate "thief" ability to just "sense something" is fishy.

OH, and Redwulf, you are correct, the CKG does say "equal to", however, the PHB thief ability states magical traps may be harder to detect. Really, I guess in the end, it's the CKs call on how difficult he wants the trap to be to detect/disarm.

[Arduin]

I can go with what you are suggesting, plus any other number of rationalizations, including some innate "thief" ability to just "sense something" is fishy.

On questions like this, Occam's razor is your friend.

[Lobo316]

I think, after chatting with one of my players who rotates GMing duties with me, we are pretty much going with the fact that magic is real in this world, thus it's no different than advanced technologies in the "real world". The thieves tools, as I mentioned in a previous post, will simply have items in it that are designed for finding and disabling magic traps. If a CK wants magic traps to be a tad more difficult, that's up to him (i'd probably say they are, and without thieves tools, increase the Cl by, i dunno 10).

That and, like Arduin pointed out, there can be "signs" if not actual sigils. Maybe the magic causes a discoloration in the stone or material that a rogue notices.

Theives tools will include items like dust, that changes color, clings in certain patterns that rogues knows how to read, or tuning forks that, in the hands of any other class, just feel they they are vibrating, but a rogue knows what those vibrations mean. Charcols, inks or oinments that are used in diabling magic traps.

I will probably even update the equipment list to include two "types" of thieves tools; standard, non-magical that your common, non-adventuring class bandits and catburglars use, and the "advanced set" that include devices for magic traps.

[Lobo316]

I can go with what you are suggesting, plus any other number of rationalizations, including some innate "thief" ability to just "sense something" is fishy.

On questions like this, Occam's razor is your friend.

Heh, probably wise

[Lurker]

Well I default to full up devils advocate on this and say it should be hard for the thief to find a truely "magical trap" and almost impossible for him to disarm it. Because of that I'd suggest a magic user check something that they think may have a magic trap even after the thief says it's safe. I'll admit that my default home brew is lower magic than the "norm" so that outlook may not fit for everyone.

..., including some innate "thief" ability to just "sense something" is fishy.

....

TO me that is the one thing that even gives the thief a chance. My first devils advocate statement may make it seem like I don't give the thief a chance, but that is tooooo harsh. They may not see the magic trap, but their spider sense will still go off and they will "know something is just wrong". As for the disarming the trap, that is a bridge too far unless there is a magic user. The thief will know something is wrong with the tome or treasure chest, and know not to open it, and may even be able to figure out how to move it with out setting off the magic, but disarming it ... just not an option for a rogue. Because of that, I'll give the magic user a chance at defeating the magic. (they have to be able to cast a spell at least one level higher than the trap, spend that spell slot, and make a siege check with a cl of the trap's spell level).

[Lobo316]

OK, to continue this chat...

Going back to detecting the trap (and perhaps disarming it), mabye someone with experience running high level games can share some insight, but if the CKG says it's based on the level of the spell (not the caster) and the PHB states that it "can be more difficult" to detect a magic trap, how do you determine the final target number?

Example: If the CL is equal to the spell level, and it's a 9th level spell, and the CB is equal to 12 (assuming a prime), that's a 21.

That seems tough, but if the spell level is as tough as it gets, and my level 15 rouge is adding his +15 level bonus to the roll, on top of his (let's assume) +4 Dex bonus, plus his thieves tools (another +2), that's a 21 without even rolling? And that's not including any outlandish equipment or potions ect. (I'm giving him a +4 dex bonus to assume he has some item or something by level 15 that will help find/disable traps).

Am I missing something in the equation here? I mean, I know a level 15 rogue should be really good at this, but really? What modifiers are there to add to this? How do you handle this?

[Arduin]

OK, to continue this chat...

Going back to detecting the trap (and perhaps disarming it), mabye someone with experience running high level games can share some insight, but if the CKG says it's based on the level of the spell (not the caster) and the PHB states that it "can be more difficult" to detect a magic trap, how do you determine the final target number?

I start with 2X spell level as a base.

[Lobo316]

OK, to continue this chat...

Going back to detecting the trap (and perhaps disarming it), mabye someone with experience running high level games can share some insight, but if the CKG says it's based on the level of the spell (not the caster) and the PHB states that it "can be more difficult" to detect a magic trap, how do you determine the final target number?

I start with 2X spell level as a base.

You know, this actually can work.

Do you, or anyone out there, combine CB's of Magic and Non-Magic? Like a spring dart trap that has a cloudkill attached to it? Is that two seperate checks?

[Arduin]

Do you, or anyone out there, combine CB's of Magic and Non-Magic? Like a spring dart trap that has a cloudkill attached to it? Is that two seperate checks?

Those are 2 different traps that happen to be in the same location. You could set 2 different rolls needed and have the person do one roll. If they roll high enough they detect both traps...