Troll Lord Games

Can Rogues back attack with the two attacks they can get if dual wielding? Can they back attack with a broadsword?

Rhino wrote:Can Rogues back attack with the two attacks they can get if dual wielding? Can they back attack with a broadsword?

There is no weapon restriction for melee weapons used. It says that the opponent must be unaware. So, if you consider dual wield as a 1-2 attack (rather than swinging both weapons at same instant), probably not as the opponent is aware after the 1st attack/strike.

There is some text in the PHB about the weapon being no longer than your arm. I was not sure if a broadsword qualified.

You are correct about the weapon needing to be no longer than your arm... short sword is about the longest bladed weapon that is practicable.

As for dual-wielding, I am with Arduin, no only a single attack can benefit from Back Attack. Take this a step further in that to make a sneak attack you will generally need to move before attacking to insure your opponent is unaware of you, thus, at least in my games, you cannot take a 1/2 move and still attack with both weapons.

Of course the thief could back away from said melee and back attack someone else (disengage, sneak around to the back of another target in 1/2 move range), or, if making the appropriate sneak based checks, even end up coming back to the same target starting the 3rd round after the attack (disengage (full move back), get back in "stealth" mode of the same target and approach (1/2 move), move in (1/2 move) and attack).

koralas wrote:You are correct about the weapon needing to be no longer than your arm... short sword is about the longest bladed weapon that is practicable.

"The Broadsword - The earliest of the Medieval swords from the 6th Century. The Broadsword had a two-edged blade measuring 2-3 inches wide at the base and tapering to a point. The length of the Broadsword ranged from 30 - 45 inches and weighed between 3 - 5 pounds" http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info ... swords.htm

It's early. How long is the arm (average)? About 24"-30"? So, short sword is it.

The rules don't specifically cover this situation, Rhino, so it's really up to the CK. At first, I was going to vote against it. Thinking about it a little longer, however, got me thinking about a couple points.

1) Both attacks happen at the same time? If you prescribe to this notion, then both attacks hit (Assuming they do) simultaneously. Meaning, the target will not be aware of one before the other. If you don't, one could rationalize that the foe won't become "aware" of the rogue until the end of the rogue's actions in the round.

2) There is a downside to attacking with two weapons. I know that sounds obvious but I think it bears reminding, considering that there is a penalty for attacking two weapons. The penalties are fairly hefty, too. This is the mitigator for attacking this way over using one weapon – a chance to do damage twice, but with a penalty to both attacks.

That being said, and considering the rules don't address it, in my game I would most likely allow a back attack to be made with two weapons. On top of the already difficult nature of the attack, the rogue suffers a -3 and a -6 on the primary and secondary attack, respectively. Odds are probably on the rogue missing at least one or, more often than not, both swings. If a PC wants to take that chance, I'd be okay with it.

koralas mentioned attacking with both weapons after moving 1/2 movement. While I respect his ruling I would probably allow it. Again, the rules don't specifically state that you cannot and with the penalties involved the character would most likely be hitting with only one anyway. I think most PCs are going to go with the sure thing when it matters (like a back attack, for example) over a chance to do extra damage but with reduced hit probability. In C&C, even that -3 on a primary attack is pretty nasty.

LD,

In all honesty, I was thinking about allowing it because the characters are first level and need all the help they can get. However, remember that your DEX bonus reduces the dual wielding penalty. An 18 DEX has a penalty of -0/-3. With the +4 for back attack that becomes a +4/+1. Not to shabby.

As for the broadsword, I was thinking about allowing it because the characters are first level and need all the help they can get.

They both go against my initial response as a hard-nosed CK who wants to keep those pesky players in their place. But I think I need to soften my stance and think about what the players will enjoy. I don't see any real long term downside. It just kind of irks me.

Rhino wrote: But I think I need to soften my stance and think about what the players will enjoy. I don't see any real long term downside. It just kind of irks me.

Players often forget that combat rules apply to monsters too. Goose/Gander.

Rhino wrote:LD,

In all honesty, I was thinking about allowing it because the characters are first level and need all the help they can get. However, remember that your DEX bonus reduces the dual wielding penalty. An 18 DEX has a penalty of -0/-3. With the +4 for back attack that becomes a +4/+1. Not to shabby.

As for the broadsword, I was thinking about allowing it because the characters are first level and need all the help they can get.

They both go against my initial response as a hard-nosed CK who wants to keep those pesky players in their place. But I think I need to soften my stance and think about what the players will enjoy. I don't see any real long term downside. It just kind of irks me.

I don't blame you one bit, hoss. I used to be a lot harder on my players than I am now, but my perception of the game has changed as well. As you said, the players might need a little help. There ain't nothing wrong with that. Fun is the objective and as long as they, and you, are having it then that's what matters.

I normally allow use of any proficient weapon, as few characters are capable of the action anyway and the positioning/restrictions are strict enough without also making the ability semi-useless. If you wish to back attack wielding a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take the normal penalties. I also allow a "double" attack, but this I restrict to being small class weapons, which I consider to be anything that is one-handed and that deals less than 1d8 damage (short sword, dagger, etc) but the damage multiplier applies only to a single attack -- essentially, you're getting two chances to score extra damage.

Or, sometimes, I just ignore the above and let it work however seems most interesting, especially if a player has spent a lot of time developing a situation to use it. Sort of like how, sometimes (though rarely) I also allow death attack to just work... no rolls needed.

I like to think the game is somewhat cinematic in this regard but I know, in my own practice, it does not happen that way, but I do try to make it more so.