Dwarves aren't small!!!

[Lobo316]

OK, so we are 5 sessions into our game, and no one (yes, I'm guilty as well) as noticed up to this point that dwarves are small. I guess we all just assumed (being the experienced lott of gamers we are) that dwarves are medium.

Does anyone else have a problem with this? Does this just not seem "right" to you? Has anyone house-ruled them to medium?

[Arduin]

They are small as far as height/movement goes. All else they are medium. That is plain to see by their PHB description. I agree and I do the same.

[Omote]

Small <5 ft.
Medium 5 ft. - 7 ft.
Large >7 ft.

~O

[Lord Dynel]

Small <5 ft.
Medium 5 ft. - 7 ft.
Large >7 ft.

~O

Exactly. M&T and the PHB lists them as "Small" and that's what I go with. They're not that much shorter than gnomes, on average (4"), to be honest. I can see how one might think of the as larger than they actually are (considering their sterotypical girth, 3.x D&D listing them as medium, etc), but I never had that imagery. I always considered them "a little taller than gnomes but a lot more stout."

[Arduin]

I can see how one might think of the as larger than they actually are (considering their sterotypical girth, 3.x D&D listing them as medium, etc), but I never had that imagery. I always considered them "a little taller than gnomes but a lot more stout."

"larger" and "taller" are two different items. Per the CKG they are larger than elves (body) but, shorter in height.

[Relaxo]

Yeah, I always perceive them as medium because they're stout and burly and wide and muscular (basically because they're tough and kick ass).
A gnome is certainly small, like a halfling (aren't gnomes and halflings abuot 3-4 feet tall? and dwarves about 4-5 feet, and elves bout 5 - 5.5 feet?)

But I guess being small makes the AC bonus vs. giants make sense.

[Lobo316]

Yeah, I always perceive them as medium because they're stout and burly and wide and muscular (basically because they're tough and kick ass).
A gnome is certainly small, like a halfling (aren't gnomes and halflings abuot 3-4 feet tall? and dwarves about 4-5 feet, and elves bout 5 - 5.5 feet?)

But I guess being small makes the AC bonus vs. giants make sense.

I always thought that AC bonus was just a by product of flavor and the fact that they are "short", but also heavy and solid.

[Lobo316]

And here's the thing, height comparisons can be thrown out all day long, but 1) tall and heavy are two different things and 2) (as Arduin points out) PER the CKG, they are larger than elves.

Here's my take on this, height is only part of the equation in a medium sized creature. I really have a hard time imaging a world were dwarves are always taking a penalty in overbearing situations vs humans or elves or are always at a disadvantage vs elves in grappling. Just not seeing it.

At this point, pending further discussion with my group, dwarves are going to be house-ruled to med size.

[Relaxo]

Yeah, they're massive, dense. An elf is spry and lithe.

Elves are shorter? (than dwarves, I mean) I konw Tolkein elves are taller than humans, but in D&D they're both shorter than humans, and I've always seen elves as taller than dwarves. just me, I guess.

[Lobo316]

Yeah, they're massive, dense. An elf is spry and lithe.

Elves are shorter? (than dwarves, I mean) I konw Tolkein elves are taller than humans, but in D&D they're both shorter than humans, and I've always seen elves as taller than dwarves. just me, I guess.

Well, really, I dont know if the CKG is referring to Height or overall stature (would have to look it up myself). But definately taller then dwarves.

Or course in a fantasy world, any of these would be redesigned to fit a different concept. Look at Elfquest for example.

[Fizz]

Size is one of those things where i think 3E did it right. I think C&C's version is over-simplistic.

"Size" can have different meanings. The only dimension in which a dwarf is "smaller" than a human or elf is height. Dwarves are wider and heavier than either humans or elves.

So i agree- they're Medium-sized in my campaigns.


-Fizz

[Chainsaw Mage]

Here's my take on this, height is only part of the equation in a medium sized creature. I really have a hard time imaging a world were dwarves are always taking a penalty in overbearing situations vs humans or elves or are always at a disadvantage vs elves in grappling. Just not seeing it.

I like the idea of dwarves being slow runners, hence a move rating of 20 feet rather than 30. That makes perfect sense to me. Can't you just picture a dwarf huffing and puffing with his short, stocky, muscular legs as the elves and humans dash ahead? So "small" makes sense from that POV. On the other hand, just as you said, there's no way they should have a penalty in grappling or overbearing (unless we start imagining dwarves in a totally different light). Perhaps house-rule them as "Small" for movement purposes as well as armor sizes, etc., but also rule they are "Medium" for grappling purposes?

By the way, are THESE guys dwarves? If so, maybe they truly are "Small" for all gaming purposes in C&C as well as old school AD&D:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mpEKfejsJDQ/T ... /Mouth.jpg

(And if anyone has to ask where that picture is from, shame on you lol!)

[Arduin]

I really have a hard time imaging a world were dwarves are always taking a penalty in overbearing situations vs humans or elves or are always at a disadvantage vs elves in grappling. Just not seeing it.

Yes, per the CKG stats, a dwarf would flatten an elf in an "overbearing" situation without trying. Think 5' tall Sumo wrestler vs. a 5'5" supermodel. Can you say squished like a bug?

[serleran]

In my world, dwarfs are of the giant type. It discourages civil war when they receive such severe modifiers against each other.

[Relaxo]

MAGIC MOUTH! (break out the twizzlers... makes mouth happy!)

I'd say those are Dwarves.

[redwullf]

SRD says Dwarves are medium, if that means anything at all.

[Lurker]

Well, I pulled out the ole dictionary (well opened a dictionary site) and it says: Dwarf - a person of unusually small stature" & "a small legendary manlike being who is usually misshapen and ugly and skilled as a craftsman "

So, it is in their name that they have to be small (and ugly too) !!!


I was just stirring the pot with that ...

I always pictured them as the dividing line between the "small" races (Gnome & Hobbits) and the medium ones. Because of that they got the bonus of being harder to hit, but weren't easily picked up and thrown around. However, I differed from standard D&D with my elves on height/size. I followed the Tolkien outlook of them being as tall as men, just not as "massive", so take my outlook with a grain of salt

[Lord Dynel]

SRD says Dwarves are medium, if that means anything at all.

SRD? I'm assuming you mean the d20 SRD. Yes, according to that, they are indeed medium. In both the C&C PHB and M&T they are listed as "small."

If all you crazy people want to call them medium, then go right ahead!! You're nuts, I tell ya! Nuts!

I kind of agree with Lurker. I've always pictured them as the biggest of the "small" races (dwarves, gnomes, halflings) and the dividers of the big/small dichotomy but I've always seen them as a small race instead of a medium one. Opinions vary, of course, and I think the Trolls were only considering the vertical scale, not any area dimensions. In the end, if you want them medium, go for it. I'll keep viewing them as small folk, though, just as I keep my vision of gnomes intact. I am glad C&C went back to the portly, jolly, halfling. I wasn't too fond of the 3.x kender version.

[Relaxo]

Yeah, what was up with the slender halflings in 3e? they were essentially half-sized humans. I know that makes a shread of sense with the name and all, but still.

[Lobo316]

Yeah, what was up with the slender halflings in 3e? they were essentially half-sized humans. I know that makes a shread of sense with the name and all, but still.

Yea, agreed on that 100%. It was like they tried to make halflings "look" more like adventurers, rather then a race.

On the dwarves (or really, any of the races), I'm not opposed to them being small. It just took me by surprise, we all just assumed they were medium. Every world can have something a tad different though. The "Tolkien elf vs the D&D elf vs. the elfquest elf for example (google elfquest for those of you who are not familiar with them...those would be "small" sized elves).

Any setting can take a fresh or new approach. Look at darksun. I can see the 3e halfling in that setting...small, wirey, quick and savage. And dwarves were hairless!

I have no qualms about things being different in any given setting. I just had/have different expectations on what the "standard" default dwarf should look like. I'll be changing them (as well as dwarf "cousins") to medium in our world.

[Arduin]

SRD says Dwarves are medium, if that means anything at all.

Yes, it explains why they are, physically (height, weight, etc), the same size in C&C and 3.x.

[redwullf]

Well, I think I figured out what happened. In B/X size was not a factor, dwarves were simply described as "short and stocky." In AD&D 1E, dwarvers were "Small" officially. Then, in AD&D 2E they started to grow, with Hill Dwarves listed as "Small to Medium" and Mountain Dwarves simply as "Medium" (4 and 1/2 feet tall and weighing as much as a human). Then, in 3E (SRD) they simply became Medium creatures.


I would say that size matters less in C&C than it did in 1E, and it matters much *more* in 3E+. My final thought on this is that C&C seems to use the 1E definition of "Size," which, as has been previouly mentioned, is essentially "Less than human height," "Human height (5 to 7 feet)," and "Larger than human height (over 7 feet)." By that reasoning, and in the spirit of 1E, Dwarves are "Small" in C&C.

So, as has also already been pointed out, you can use them as written (and party like it's Gary's campaign), or use the "modern" version of the dwarf and bump them up to medium size due to their girth. Whatever blows your hair back.

[Arduin]

or use the "modern" version of the dwarf and bump them up to medium size due to their girth. Whatever blows your hair back.

The CKG took this approach. Even made them go over 5' tall...

[Lurker]

Whatever blows your hair back.

Well that leave me out, I have my dad's "bald as an egg" genetics ...

Red, thanks for that explination. I never got into the weeds in 3e, so never had to think about how important size was to the game. To me it was more of a flavor item. I like the "is essentially "Less than human height," "Human height (5 to 7 feet)," and "Larger than human height (over 7 feet)"