Troll Lord Games

Ok, so this is a cross post from over at the big purple, but figured it might get more traction here.

The question posted was the following:

What, specifically, happens when the head is hit?

So I went on to cite a couple of references from the PHB/CKG.....

According to the Players Handbook (3rd Printing): The only mention of AC for Helmets is on page 41, where it says, "Armor Class adjustments for helmets apply to strikes against the head only, they do not othewise adjust armor class."

According to the Castles Keeper's Guide: Under the Combat Maneuvers section on page 256, "Called Shot" it says: "This is when a combatant takes careful aim attempting to hit the target in a specific spot. The attacker suffers a -8 to their shot, but if they hit they score an automatic critical"
Further, it goes on to give the following Example on the same page:

"Janna the half-elf ranger wants to make a called shot on an orc's helmeted head. The orc's armor class is a measly 13, but its helment grants it a +2 and the head itself is difficult to hit granting the orc an additional +3 to base armor class. This gives Janna an Armor Class of 18 to hit prior to adding the - 8 penalty for making the called shot. If Janna wants to hit the orc in the head she must make an attack roll of 26 or better. If she hits, she automatically deals critical damage depending on the method used by her game group. If no method is used, allow the arrow to deal double damage."

So to answer your original question. If you're just using the PHB, then it is a useless hole in the rules. If you're using the CKG and its optional combat maneuvers, then the Helmet AC is used when making a called shot.

There is another issue. How did the example come up with giving a +3 for simply hitting a creature in the head? That was like out of no where? Anyone know what that is all about? I would figure the -8 'to hit' for all called shot covers this. Meaning if I used the same scenario above (without the +3 AC for the target location) Janna would need a 23 or better.

This optional answer is also found in the CKG. On page 261, under 'Wound Points' is a listing of various body parts (head, torso, arms, etc) with the added Armor Class bonus for each of these areas. The head gets a +3 to the base AC, so this is where the Janna example is getting the AC bump from.

Personally, I have yet to use the idea of a seperate AC for Helmets or various body parts. I am curious as to how all of you use the Helmet AC (or not). Same goes for called shots.

A MUCH easier way to deal with this comes from AD&D (if I remember correctly). IF, a person decided to forgo a major piece of their armour, you just assign a chance based on the missing piece (1-6 or 1-8) that ANY given blow/shot ends up there and you negate the AC. IE: No helmet with full plate (1-8 attacks are against AC 10) (No breastplate with same armour, 1-6 gets to go vs. AC 10).

No called shots or anything else complicated needed...

TheMetal1 wrote:Personally, I have yet to use the idea of a seperate AC for Helmets or various body parts. I am curious as to how all of you use the Helmet AC (or not). Same goes for called shots.

I don't use separate AC for heads or any other body part. The only exception is when the rules themselves necessitate it, such as when attacking a Beholder (its eyestalks have a different AC than its central eye).

Honestly, it feels like a tacked-on rule to me (I'm referring to the original AD&D rule here) that probably has its origins in wargaming simulationism.

As for called shots, that's something different. I can see certain situations arising when it makes sense (the characters want to shoot the potion the orc is holding or something like that). That's easy to adjudicate, though -8 seems a bit harsh. Probably depends on the situation. Called shot to the big oak door is probably different than called shot to the tiny amulet the lich is wearing.

serleran and I discussed this a while ago in a thread. If I recall correctly, it was the consensus that head AC would be 10 + helmet + dexterity modifier. If a called shot to the head (or eyes, or any other spot on the head) would be made (which there were no rules for in the PHB, and only rules for the Future variant in the CKG) then it would be made against this AC, instead of normal AC. This attack would also come with a penalty, which I can't recall off hand, but -6 (for head, maybe -8 for eyes) penalty sounds right.

Lord Dynel wrote:then it would be made against this AC, instead of normal AC. This attack would also come with a penalty, which I can't recall off hand, but -6 (for head, maybe -8 for eyes) penalty sounds right.

That would mean, in effect, that a naked head has an AC of 16...

Arduin wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:then it would be made against this AC, instead of normal AC. This attack would also come with a penalty, which I can't recall off hand, but -6 (for head, maybe -8 for eyes) penalty sounds right.

That would mean, in effect, that a naked head has an AC of 16...

For his head, that is correct.

Lord Dynel wrote:
For his head, that is correct.

So, at point of shedding parts of their full plate suit do you lower the person's AC?

Arduin wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:
For his head, that is correct.

So, at point of shedding parts of their full plate suit do you lower the person's AC?

Sure, if you want. There was a good thread on here that talks about piecemeal armor. You can certainly use the rules from 2e (with a few tweaks) to simulate this. That's up to you, hoss. Besides, that's a whole different thread you're more than welcome to start up if you want. But for the head, that's what was previously discussed: 10 + helm AC + dexterity for any shots at the head vs. attack with a -6 (IIRC) penalty.

I fully have lost this rule on the PHB, but for sure I have read a lot of pages about it on the section about rules of the 1e of AD&D at Dragonfoot. I don't have applied it yet and I must see how my players will react to it. I like the approach of Arduin: this keeps it simple. I'll go with a 1 on 1d6 and only if it makes sense: an orc vs a human makes sense, but a goblin vs human no. The goblin should jump to hit a human in the head.

doominicus wrote:I fully have lost this rule on the PHB, but for sure I have read a lot of pages about it on the section about rules of the 1e of AD&D at Dragonfoot. I don't have applied it yet and I must see how my players will react to it. I like the approach of Arduin: this keeps it simple. I'll go with a 1 on 1d6 and only if it makes sense: an orc vs a human makes sense, but a goblin vs human no. The goblin should jump to hit a human in the head.

Maybe require the goblin to make a Dexterity check to successfully jump up there lol . . .

TheMetal1 wrote: If you're just using the PHB, then it is a useless hole in the rules.

Even without the CKG, I might rule that attacks hit the character's head in certain situations, such as someone attacking from above. In those cases, I wouldn't even call that a called shot, just a regular attack roll against the character, which because of their respective positions, is resolved against the character's head AC (10 + helm AC bonus + Dex mod, if aware of the attack).

Chainsaw Mage wrote:Honestly, it feels like a tacked-on rule to me (I'm referring to the original AD&D rule here) that probably has its origins in wargaming simulationism.

No, it comes from the one minute abstract melee round, and the actual attack roll is made on the one attack (or multiple attacks) that have an opportunity to hit. Rather than having a full hit location chart as in D&D Supplement II - Blackmoor, this left a chance for an abstract combat system to actually strike the head. Wearing a helmet is great protection for you head, but can bring many issues, limited visibility, make breathing more difficult, and holding a great deal of body heat (leading to exhaustion more quickly) among others. Now intentionally trying to strike the head, well that would incur an additional to-hit penalty as the character or opponent if focusing on hitting a relatively small and highly mobile target that the defender will be most interested in protecting.

My previous post was based on a conversation that, I believe, attempted to to make striking the head more realistic and to utilize the helmet AC's that were listed. I feel that there should have been accompanying rules for striking at the specific body parts, considering the Trolls gave ACs for helmets. Alas, no such system was given. I remembered that conversation since this topic has come up again, but I don't necessarily support that method. Would I use it? Perhaps. I guess it would depend on my feelings on the matter when I started the campaign.

In the end, it comes down to personally preference. A shot to the head could, and usually should, be fatal. To me, this is represented in the critical hit system. The natural 20 that's rolled can easily represent a shot to the head. If the target is not wearing a helmet, a CK can easily rule that in addition to the extra damage (or perhaps in place of?) the target is also blinded, has their throat pierced, or any number of head injuries. This can also be replicated on other body parts, if armor is missing. I think this is the simpliest way to handle it, and would probably be my default method.

Lord Dynel wrote: I feel that there should have been accompanying rules for striking at the specific body parts, considering the Trolls gave ACs for helmets. Alas, no such system was given.

Not in the PHB, but there actually is in the CKG. On page 257 and 258 there are four tables for randomly landed blows - Humanoids, Quadrupeds, Winged Quadrupeds and Dragon Like creature (using a d8, d8, d10 and d12 respectively).

To utilize this, I was actually thinking of having everyone roll the d20 "to hit" and at the same time, roll a dice to adjuidcate hit location. That way, it adds something to the narrative. Additionally, it brings an actual use for a helmet (a 1 in 8 chance of getting smacked in the head outside of a Called Shot). I think I'll forgo the whole hit location has extra a/c stuff, but will still allow Called Shots.

TheMetal1 wrote: To utilize this, I was actually thinking of having everyone roll the d20 "to hit" and at the same time, roll a dice to adjuidcate hit location. That way, it adds something to the narrative. Additionally, it brings an actual use for a helmet (a 1 in 8 chance of getting smacked in the head outside of a Called Shot).

I do this already as the GM. For flavor and, if like above, a character is missing a key part of their armour. Head shots aren't fatal at all if the PC has H.P. It just gets described as a glancing blow, slight cut, etc. Really, anything above a PC's 1st level H.P. is not really damage anyway...

TheMetal1 wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote: I feel that there should have been accompanying rules for striking at the specific body parts, considering the Trolls gave ACs for helmets. Alas, no such system was given.

Not in the PHB, but there actually is in the CKG. On page 257 and 258 there are four tables for randomly landed blows - Humanoids, Quadrupeds, Winged Quadrupeds and Dragon Like creature (using a d8, d8, d10 and d12 respectively).

To utilize this, I was actually thinking of having everyone roll the d20 "to hit" and at the same time, roll a dice to adjuidcate hit location. That way, it adds something to the narrative. Additionally, it brings an actual use for a helmet (a 1 in 8 chance of getting smacked in the head outside of a Called Shot). I think I'll forgo the whole hit location has extra a/c stuff, but will still allow Called Shots.

This would work fine, I would think. For me, personally, I would probably get tired of rolling the extra dice and calling out where the shots are landing. Again, that's me - I feel like there should be something special for each spot that's hit. *shrug*

Your page reference (pg. 257, CKG) actually found the Called Shot for me, which I thought I remembered seeing but couldn't recall where. Damn old age. Anyway, I think this would work quite well, for my game. A -8 to attack, but the hit is an automatic critical. If it's a head shot, I can use the 10 + Helm AC + Dex mod. I talked about earlier. If it's another body part, I would assume that's covered by armor of some sort which, for simplicity's sake, would just use normal AC.