Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

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Sir Ironside
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Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

In the monster books each monster has an alternative xp system that will have something like, 1200 + 7. I've noticed that the + (number) seems to coincide with the monsters level. I just have no idea what the + (number) is suppose to represent when altering the base xp number.

Either I'm a idiot and can't find the explanation, or it doesn't exist. Could some please enlighten me?
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Ozreth »

Check out my post a bit farther down :)

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12126

*EDIT wait...you're in that post :|

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Dead Horse »

To save time... the + is number of xp per hit point the monster has.
So you have to do a small ammount math.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Ozreth wrote:Check out my post a bit farther down :)

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12126

*EDIT wait...you're in that post :|
Yeah I answered your initial question. The bottom paragraph asking the same question, the +(number) hoping someone would chime in there.
Dead Horse wrote:To save time... the + is number of xp per hit point the monster has.
So you have to do a small ammount math.
So if my 7HD monster with a base of 1400 + 7 and, I feel that this monster was more of challenge than the listed xp (1400) and I rolled for 39 hp I just add the hp to the base xp to get the final xp. 1400+39=1439 xp. 39 points above average.

Thanks that makes sense. :)

Is that info anywhere in any book?
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by redwullf »

Sir Ironside wrote:So if my 7HD monster with a base of 1400 + 7 and, I feel that this monster was more of challenge than the listed xp (1400) and I rolled for 39 hp I just add the hp to the base xp to get the final xp. 1400+39=1439 xp. 39 points above average.

Thanks that makes sense. :)

Is that info anywhere in any book?
This is explained in Monsters & Treasure at the beginning of the book, under "Monster Characteristics" / "Experience Points (XP)." Look for the block that begins "Experience Per Hit Point."
Monster & Treasure wrote:EXPERIENCE PER HIT POINT : A monster’s hit point total influences the amount of experience it confers. To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature. For example, a 5 (d10) HD creature has 25 hit points, the base is 80 experience points plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 205.
So, in your example, your monster has the following total XP:

1400 + (7 * 39) = 1400 + 273 = 1,673 XP
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Ozreth wrote:Check out my post a bit farther down :)

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12126

*EDIT wait...you're in that post :|
Yeah I answered your initial question. The bottom paragraph asking the same question, the +(number) hoping someone would chime in there.
Dead Horse wrote:To save time... the + is number of xp per hit point the monster has.
So you have to do a small ammount math.
So if my 7HD monster with a base of 1400 + 7 and, I feel that this monster was more of challenge than the listed xp (1400) and I rolled for 39 hp I just add the hp to the base xp to get the final xp. 1400+39=1439 xp. 39 points above average.

Thanks that makes sense. :)

Is that info anywhere in any book?
Using your example, you take the rolled up hit points - in your example it would be 39 - and multiply it by the "+" number, in your example is 7. The total for your example would 1673 XP (1400 + [39*7]). Remember the "+X" number means "multiply X by the number of HP rolled" and you should be good.

That should be correct unless it's too early. :P
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by TheMetal1 »

Lord Dynel wrote:That should be correct unless it's too early.
I think you're spot on...save for one thing...the monster's special abilities.
Lord Dynel wrote:The total for your example would 1673 XP (1400 + [39*7]). Remember the "+X" number means "multiply X by the number of HP rolled" and you should be good.


If the monster has special abilities (i.e. Multiple Attacks, Spells, etc.) you cross reference the special ability (I, II, or III) each with a specific experience point amoutn on the chart. In the case of a 7HD monster you have the following:

Special I: 90 Special II: 135 Special III: 180

So if this 7HD monster had the ability to make say 4 attacks a round (a Special I for 90 XPs) and Cast 1st Level Spells (another Special I for 90 XPs) then that means in the original example the 1673 XP becomes 1853 XP (1673 + [90+90]), for reference, here is the definition of each of the specials. The amount of XPs vary according to HD, so check the chart on page 6.
M&T, 2nd Printing, page 6 wrote: Special I: This category includes three or more attacks per round, spell use of 1st-3rd level (or equivalent spell-like abilities), and unique abilities such as tracking, hiding, or back attacks.

Special II: This category includes 5 or more attacks per round, damage of 4d6 or more for a single attack, spell use of 4th-7th level or equivalent, and extraordinary powers like invisibility or etherealness.

Special III: This category includes death attacks, petrification attacks, and spell use of 8th level and higher (or equivalent).

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

redwullf wrote:This is explained in Monsters & Treasure at the beginning of the book, under "Monster Characteristics" / "Experience Points (XP)." Look for the block that begins "Experience Per Hit Point."
Monster & Treasure wrote:EXPERIENCE PER HIT POINT : A monster’s hit point total influences the amount of experience it confers. To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature. For example, a 5 (d10) HD creature has 25 hit points, the base is 80 experience points plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 205.
So, in your example, your monster has the following total XP:

1400 + (7 * 39) = 1400 + 273 = 1,673 XP
This paragraph seems to be clearly done for figuring out hp using the first longer way (original) to calculate xp. The example is clearly an example of how to add monster xp using the normal method. The fast xp of the +(number) doesn't make it fast as you are using 3/4 of the rules from the original.

Lets use the Behir. The fast xp is 2725 +9. Which is calculated as the average. Using 9 HD the average roll would be 45. So, 2725 is the average xp you would award without having to calculate anything (Which is assumed that all the special abilities are rolled into the average for ease.)

The original xp determination is this...

By the book calculation.

(5HD creature rolls a 25 for hp X HD level 5 = *125hp [That is a 25 out of a possible 50hp.]) + (its base of 80) = 205

*What happened to the 5 experience points per hit dice rolled?

Behir by the book, with a roll of 45 hp.

(9HD creature rolls a 45 for hp) X HD level 9 = 405

(9X45=405)+(405X9=3645) + base of 400 + (6 special I X 200 = 1200) + (1 special II X 300 = 300) = 5545xp (It is a pain to have to look-up each ability to see what category a special ability falls under.)

Take away the "specials" you get 4045xp

The Behir written average is 6436-2725 = a discrepancy of 2820 xp. That is hard mathematical numbers and there maybe constants that push the average xp up to 2725.

Now the averaged monster number using the 9HD X rolled number equals 2725+(9X45=405)=3130. for a harder encounter.

I'm more confused than ever.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Arakor »

Specials should already be accounted for in the Base XP.

A 7HD creature without Specials would be 180+7.
Using your example, the creature would be worth 180 + (7*39) = 180+273 = 453XP.
If I saw a 7HD creature with an XP line of 1400+7, I would be assuming that the Specials have been calculated in (which for all the entries in M&T, they are).

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arakor beat me to it (I hate posting with my iPhone, btw) but yeah, monster entries in M&T already have everything figured into their XP. That chart in the front, unless my thinking is flawed, is primarily used when you want to make your own monsters - those are the guidelines you use for figuring its XP.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by scp »

I am glad someone else has had problems with this. This kind of stuff is the main reason why I use this instead of what's in M&T:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/php4/archive ... fileid=203

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by TheMetal1 »

Let me try and run the math to see if it works...

The Behir is a HD 9 (d10) monster with an XP: 2725+9. The 2725 is the base XP and the +9 is the initial XP added for each Hit Point.

Lets go with you're example that you rolled 45 HP for the Behir. According to the RAW, "...Mulitply the Number of Hit Points by the Hit Dice of the Creature, and divide by 2." So 45 HP x d10 = 450. 450 divided by 2 = 225.

(As a side note, it seems in the previous posts, we have been neglecting the "divide by 2" on the Hit Points for XP.)

Now add that number (225 XP for Hit Points) to the Base Hit Points of the Behir (2725 XP) and you have the 2950 total.


----------------------------------

According to what everyone is saying, the Specials are already included in the Base XP listed for the monster. Let's see if that checks out. Lets go with the idea that the Behir is a monster you're making up from scratch. The Base XP for a 9 HD creature on the Chart is 400 XP.

Now to the Behir's Special Abilities: Special I: 200; Special II: 300; Special III: 400

Breath Weapon: As Lightning Bolt Spell which is a 3rd Level Wizard or Druid Spell, so Special I - 200 XP
Constrict: Nothing extrodinary - Special I - 200 XP
Improved Grab: same as above Special I - 200 XP
Rake: Since it is 4d6 or morethat makes it Special II, and the Behir does 6d6 we have Special II - 300 XP
Swallow Whole: This does 4d6 Damage so another Special II - 300 XP
Cannot Be Tripped: Special I - 200 XP
Darkvision 60ft: Special I - 200 XP
Immunity (Electricity - Full) - this I'd label as Extradordinary, so Special II - 300 XP
Twilight Vision: Special I - 200 XP

The Total for all the Specials (at least how I read it) are: (200+200+200+300+300+200+200+300+200)=2100 XPs

The base number of XP(400) is added to all the Special Abilities for the Behir (2100) give us a total of 2500 XP for Base. Add in the 45 Hit Points using the RAWs you add an additional (225) to the total giving you: 2725. Which coincidently is the original base total for a Behir. The thing is the listed base XP is 2725, but there is no way at least how I see it, that you could come up with a base number 2725 just using the base (400) and the Specials (200, 300 and 400).

I'd like to see the Trolls weigh in on this one, as there seems to an issue with how they arrived at the Behir's Base.

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Dead Horse »

I see alot of people trying to combine 2 different systems.

The detailed chart break down with special I II III are for doing your monsters or figuring a leveled character.

Monster entries in the books have an xp + (#) the # is mutilplied by the creatures Hit points to get a product you add to the the base for a total monster xp.

DONT combine the two systems. Dont try to figure out out how they came up with base numbers. The two systems do not jive...ever.

This supposed to be a simple system, dont over complicate it.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by mgtremaine »

Now he tells me ;)

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by TheMetal1 »

Dead Horse wrote:Monster entries in the books have an xp + (#) the # is mutilplied by the creatures Hit points to get a product you add to the the base for a total monster xp.
Actually, no it isn't. The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2. Then you get a product that you add to the base for a total monster XP. For reference, see page 6, the RAW: "To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature, and divide by 2."
Dead Horse wrote:DONT combine the two systems. Dont try to figure out out how they came up with base numbers. The two systems do not jive...ever.
RAW on page 5 state the following: "The number following the entry is the average XP. The following chart can be used to determine the experience points of any monster in this book, or monsters which have been altered or created." The chart of course is that Monster Experience Points Chart on Page 6. The way I read this is we should be able to figure out the XP value of monsters listed and that it is indeed one system.

I agree completely with you, though the system isn't that complicated, just use the XP listed and calculate the bonus for Hit Points and you're good.

Though, I hope in future printings, they adjust the XP by dispensesing with the add the Hit Point Bonus in and simply making and average total with HP bonus included in. We can always look up the Hit Point bonus on the chart if we want to see how their math works out.

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Arakor »

TheMetal1 wrote:
Dead Horse wrote:Monster entries in the books have an xp + (#) the # is mutilplied by the creatures Hit points to get a product you add to the the base for a total monster xp.
Actually, no it isn't. The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2. Then you get a product that you add to the base for a total monster XP. For reference, see page 6, the RAW: "To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature, and divide by 2."
Now where the heck do you get that "divide by two"?
Because it sure ain't in the 3rd printing of M&T pg.6.

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

In theory, I believe that the chart is supposed to be able to reproduce a listed monster's XP. In theory. And actually, it does for many of them. But I think the Trolls may have calculated some of them and then thought, "nah, these guys shoudl be worth a little bit more XP." That's my theory anyway.

I haven't seen a divide by 2 anywhere, either.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by alcyone »

I think we've seen all of the ways everyone thinks it should work.

Author: how did you intend it to work?
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by gideon_thorne »

Aergraith wrote:I think we've seen all of the ways everyone thinks it should work.

Author: how did you intend it to work?

Ya, someone ping Serleran. I'm pretty sure he wrote the @&%^! thing. :lol:
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Dead Horse wrote:I see alot of people trying to combine 2 different systems.
I wasn't. It was for comparison only. And, obviously the wording of how to calculate monster xp using the chart instead of the number in the monster stat block.
Arakor wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote:
Dead Horse wrote:Monster entries in the books have an xp + (#) the # is mutilplied by the creatures Hit points to get a product you add to the the base for a total monster xp.
Actually, no it isn't. The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2. Then you get a product that you add to the base for a total monster XP. For reference, see page 6, the RAW: "To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature, and divide by 2."
Now where the heck do you get that "divide by two"?
Because it sure ain't in the 3rd printing of M&T pg.6.
Yep, same with me.
Lord Dynel wrote:In theory, I believe that the chart is supposed to be able to reproduce a listed monster's XP. In theory. And actually, it does for many of them. But I think the Trolls may have calculated some of them and then thought, "nah, these guys shoudl be worth a little bit more XP." That's my theory anyway.
Slept and I am now refreshed.

I think I included a step that simply wasn't there. Let me retry, by the book.

The Behir 7HD. I roll a 45 for HP. Then I multiply the 45 times the chart per HP, which is 315. Add the base which is 180. 315+180 = 495. Now I include the specials which someone so kindly figured out for me at 2100. 2100+495= 2595 hp.

The xp in the stat block is 2725 + 9. Much better than my convoluted, made it harder than it was, first attempt.

On page 5 at the bottom under EXPERIENCE POINTS XP: It reads, "(XP) represents the development reward that characters receive for slaying, subduing or otherwise defeating monsters. Refer to the Castles & Crusades Players Handbookfor information on awarding experience points. The number following the entry is the average XP. The following chart (On page 6) can be used to determine the experience points of any monster in this book, or monsters which have been altered or created."

So, I figure that the chart should only be used for more important monsters and should have its stats done before the game and the chart shouldn't be used, on-the-fly.

The problem for the +(number), is in the latest printing (which I have), there is nowhere that explains how to use the +(number). The bold, underlined is the only reference I can find about the entry in the monster stat block. Which results in confusion for anyone new to the game.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Sir Ironside wrote:
Dead Horse wrote:I see alot of people trying to combine 2 different systems.
I wasn't. It was for comparison only. And, obviously the wording of how to calculate monster xp using the chart instead of the number in the monster stat block.
Arakor wrote:
TheMetal1 wrote:
Dead Horse wrote:Monster entries in the books have an xp + (#) the # is mutilplied by the creatures Hit points to get a product you add to the the base for a total monster xp.
Actually, no it isn't. The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2. Then you get a product that you add to the base for a total monster XP. For reference, see page 6, the RAW: "To calculate this, simply multiply the number of hit points by the hit dice of the creature, and divide by 2."
Now where the heck do you get that "divide by two"?
Because it sure ain't in the 3rd printing of M&T pg.6.
Yep, same with me.
Lord Dynel wrote:In theory, I believe that the chart is supposed to be able to reproduce a listed monster's XP. In theory. And actually, it does for many of them. But I think the Trolls may have calculated some of them and then thought, "nah, these guys shoudl be worth a little bit more XP." That's my theory anyway.
Slept and I am now refreshed.

I think I included a step that simply wasn't there. Let me retry, by the book.

The Behir 7HD. I roll a 45 for HP. Then I multiply the 45 times the chart per HP, which is 315. Add the base which is 180. 315+180 = 495. Now I include the specials which someone so kindly figured out for me at 2100. 2100+495= 2595 hp.

The xp in the stat block is 2725 + 9. Much better than my convoluted, made it harder than it was, first attempt.

On page 5 at the bottom under EXPERIENCE POINTS XP: It reads, "(XP) represents the development reward that characters receive for slaying, subduing or otherwise defeating monsters. Refer to the Castles & Crusades Players Handbookfor information on awarding experience points. The number following the entry is the average XP. The following chart (On page 6) can be used to determine the experience points of any monster in this book, or monsters which have been altered or created."

So, I figure that the chart should only be used for more important monsters and should have its stats done before the game and the chart shouldn't be used, on-the-fly.

The problem for the +(number), is in the latest printing (which I have), there is nowhere that explains how to use the +(number).
It does explain the +number, but you kind of have to read between the lines. In the paragraph that started "EXPERIENCE PER HIP POINT:" the way it explains it is kind of wonky, but the example is correct:
CKG, page 6 wrote:For example, a 5 (d10) HD creature has 25 hit points, the base is 80 experience plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 205.
That should be a pretty good example. A 5(d10) HD creature, in which the CK rolls 25 for it's hp. A 5 HD creature HD is base 80, and it gets a "Per HP" bonus of 5. So 25*5 is 125. Add that to the 80, you get 205. Note there were no "Special" cases used in this example, for simplicity sake.

Now, the other hint on how the +number is used is a little further down the page. It's not a drawn out example like above, but it's under the "SPECIAL: heading:
...Skagg (4HD)...Skagg's base experience points (40) are increased by 40 points (20 XPs for each special ability) for a total base of 80 XPs plus 4 XP per hit point.
Mr. Skagg has two Special I abilities, adding 40 to his base of 40 XP, for a total of 80. Since he's got 4 HD, that gives him a bonus of "4 XP per hit point." My point isn't to explain that chart, but to point out where the book indicates how to use that +number. The first example cited actually shows that it multiplies the +number by the rolled hit points, and the second example reinforces it (by granting Skagg a bonus of 4 XP/hit point, which is his +number).

The sentence about being able to figure out any monster in this book? Yeah, you need to forget about that. :) Use that chart for a new/non C&C monster and stick witht he printed XP values for the existing monsters. It'll save you some headaches. ;)
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by TheMetal1 »

Arakor wrote:Now where the heck do you get that "divide by two"?Because it sure ain't in the 3rd printing of M&T pg.6.
Lord Dynel wrote:I haven't seen a divide by 2 anywhere, either.
Sir Ironside wrote:Yep, same with me.
I'm looking at M&T 2nd Printing PDF, which has the divide by 2 right in there. Must of been fixed for 3rd Printing. :roll:

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Lord Dynel wrote:It does explain the +number, but you kind of have to read between the lines. In the paragraph that started "EXPERIENCE PER HIP POINT:" the way it explains it is kind of wonky, but the example is correct:

quote+"CKG, page 6"]For example, a 5 (d10) HD creature has 25 hit points, the base is 80 experience plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 205.

That should be a pretty good example. A 5(d10) HD creature, in which the CK rolls 25 for it's hp. A 5 HD creature HD is base 80, and it gets a "Per HP" bonus of 5. So 25*5 is 125. Add that to the 80, you get 205. Note there were no "Special" cases used in this example, for simplicity sake.

Now, the other hint on how the +number is used is a little further down the page. It's not a drawn out example like above, but it's under the "SPECIAL: heading:
...Skagg (4HD)...Skagg's base experience points (40) are increased by 40 points (20 XPs for each special ability) for a total base of 80 XPs plus 4 XP per hit point.

Mr. Skagg has two Special I abilities, adding 40 to his base of 40 XP, for a total of 80. Since he's got 4 HD, that gives him a bonus of "4 XP per hit point." My point isn't to explain that chart, but to point out where the book indicates how to use that +number. The first example cited actually shows that it multiplies the +number by the rolled hit points, and the second example reinforces it (by granting Skagg a bonus of 4 XP/hit point, which is his +number).
Hate to disagree, but everything you quoted are examples of determining xp from scratch. Nowhere does it mention what the +(number) is.
The sentence about being able to figure out any monster in this book? Yeah, you need to forget about that. :) Use that chart for a new/non C&C monster and stick witht he printed XP values for the existing monsters. It'll save you some headaches. ;)
I plan on doing just that, but knowing what the +(number) does would be a great help.

Someone earlier mentioned that the +(number) was, "The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2", was in an earlier printing. It has been omitted from the latest printing. Don't know why.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Arakor »

Sir Ironside wrote:Someone earlier mentioned that the +(number) was, "The # is Multiplied by the creatures Hit points and then Divided by 2", was in an earlier printing. It has been omitted from the latest printing. Don't know why.
Just dug out my second printing of M&T and sure enough, the divide by two is in there.
Having said that, the example immediately following it states:
For example, a 5(d10) HD creature has an average of 25 hit points. The base is 160 experience points plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 285.
Last time I did mathematics, I could have sworn (25*5)/2 was 67.5 so I suspect that the divide by two was a mistake possibly even a holdover from the 1st printing.

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Sir Ironside
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Arakor wrote:Just dug out my second printing of M&T and sure enough, the divide by two is in there.
Having said that, the example immediately following it states:

For example, a 5(d10) HD creature has an average of 25 hit points. The base is 160 experience points plus 5 experience points per hit point. 125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature, for a total of 285.
In the latest printing it is pretty clear that this example was meant for the chart and not the creature stat block. Maybe the mistake was the example is suppose to be for the chart and was accidentally used as an example for the +(number) which would mean it has been fixed for the latest printing. But, fixing that, the +(number) example/rule was removed. Maybe by accident?
Last time I did mathematics, I could have sworn (25*5)/2 was 67.5 so I suspect that the divide by two was a mistake possibly even a holdover from the 1st printing.
From what I understand this is the official +(number) and it is the one I'll use.

I'm satisfied, but I worry about the new C&C players, that don't frequent this forum, and how confusing it'll be because of that one sentence being left out.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by koralas »

Sir Ironside wrote:I'm satisfied, but I worry about the new C&C players, that don't frequent this forum, and how confusing it'll be because of that one sentence being left out.
Most likely new players will have a 3rd print (or later when the next one rolls out) of the book and will have the rules pretty much laid out. Though a simplified formula and example could be in order...

Calculated XP = [Base XP] + ([# of Special I abilities] * [Spec. I XP]) + ([# of Special II abilities] * [Spec. II XP]) + ([# of Special III abilities] * [Spec. III XP])

XP per HP = [# of HD]

So the Quick XP of a new custom creature (or a leveled character class):
XP: [Calculated XP] +[XP per HP]

Using the Behir you would have:
Calculated XP = 400 + (6 * 200) + (4 * 300) = 2800
XP per HP = 9

Thus the XP line would read -XP: 2800 +9

Very close to the 2725 +9 in the book, a little more, not sure why the Trolls would have 75 XP less, but ah well...

Note, the list of the special abilities was taken from The Metal1's post, with one addition...
TheMetal1 wrote:Breath Weapon: As Lightning Bolt Spell which is a 3rd Level Wizard or Druid Spell, so Special I - 200 XP
Constrict: Nothing extrodinary - Special I - 200 XP
Improved Grab: same as above Special I - 200 XP
Rake: Since it is 4d6 or morethat makes it Special II, and the Behir does 6d6 we have Special II - 300 XP
Swallow Whole: This does 4d6 Damage so another Special II - 300 XP
Cannot Be Tripped: Special I - 200 XP
Darkvision 60ft: Special I - 200 XP
Immunity (Electricity - Full) - this I'd label as Extradordinary, so Special II - 300 XP
Twilight Vision: Special I - 200 XP
My additon - 8 attacks - Special II (note this is different from the RAKE ability since those are all automatic hits, the Attacks section shows a Bite, Slam, and 6 Talons(1d6 EACH)

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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Sir Ironside wrote: Hate to disagree, but everything you quoted are examples of determining xp from scratch. Nowhere does it mention what the +(number) is.
This is why I don't think I could ever be a teacher. :lol: That's not a dig at you, Iron. It's one of those cases where I see it perfectly but you don't. And I'm like, "It's right there!!" :P

I'll try to explain it again, and I promise to quit if I'm not making it any easier. :P But if I'm not understanding your question, then please let me know.

The example I quoted was from determining XP from scratch, but I also said in my post that, "My point isn't to explain that chart, but to point out where the book indicates how to use that +number." I'm going to use the example again, if that's okay. The first example I gave says, "a 5 (d10) HD creature has 25 hit points, the base is 80 experience plus 5 experience points per hit point. The +(number) is the bolded part. That should be interpreted as saying "+5." Later it says what to do with that +5 - "125 extra experience points would be awarded for this creature..." The 5 of the "+5" is multiplied by the HP rolled - in this case, 25 - to get that extra 125 XP that was stated.

Maybe the issue is that what I've explained doesn't have a connection to the XP listed for the creature. No where does it say that the number that I'm explaining is the +(number). I didn't see until after I wrote this up that you were satisified, but I left the post as written as it may help someone else understand. I think a lot of C&C (think "equipment section" ;)) assumes that the player has some prior RPG knowledge. To me, I knew right off the bat, without looking at any explanation, what the +(number) meant. But I also see that the chart and it's description does give an explanation for this, though the reader has to do a little "connecting the dots" to realize that "XP per HP" column on the table also correlates to the +(number) in the individual entries. But I agree with you, Iron, that some newer players might not see the connection.

I guess I think the examples work just fine, for me, because my reasoning is that whether you have a monster you whip up yourself or one listed in the book, you still have an A xp + B xp/hp formula. Since the examples tell you what to do with that second number it seems clear to me. No, they don't literally say "this is the number after the "+" but they both say "plus X experience per hit point" - it seems clear to me. I don't want to come off like I'm so superior intellect or anything, so my apologies if I am.

In my opinion, I think a couple things ought to be explained (or clarified) in a new printing:
1) How to calculate XP for monsters properly: A xp + B xp/hp and what that means.
2) That the XPs for the individual creatures listed in the book are complete and no work needs to be done on them.
3) The chart for "determining your own XP" are for your own creatures and how to use it.
4) The chart for "determining your own XP" doesn't always, 100% of the time, work for monsters already in the book. in other words, they don't always "reverse engineer."
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote: I'll try to explain it again, and I promise to quit if I'm not making it any easier. :P But if I'm not understanding your question, then please let me know.
Okay, so the +# in the EXISTING monster entries is just a notation of what the XP per HP is for that creature based on its HD. I looked up "Orc" as an example. It lists XP: 5 +1. So, I assume that the GM takes the 5XP, rolls h.p. for the Orc (say gets a 5 on the roll) and adds 5 (as 5 * 1 = 5) to get a total of 10 X.P. ?
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote: I'll try to explain it again, and I promise to quit if I'm not making it any easier. :P But if I'm not understanding your question, then please let me know.
Okay, so the +# in the EXISTING monster entries is just a notation of what the XP per HP is for that creature based on its HD. I looked up "Orc" as an example. It lists XP: 5 +1. So, I assume that the GM takes the 5XP, rolls h.p. for the Orc (say gets a 5 on the roll) and adds 5 (as 5 * 1 = 5) to get a total of 10 X.P. ?
That's absolutely correct. The +# should (and I've never verified it by looking at every monster, so that's a very loose should) always equal the HD of the creature. I don't want that to cause more confusion, so I hope it doesn't. :)

But yes, according to everything we've been given, that is a correct calculation, sir.
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Re: Seriously whats up with the +(number) with monster xp?

Post by Arduin »

Lord Dynel wrote: That's absolutely correct. The +# should (and I've never verified it by looking at every monster, so that's a very loose should) always equal the HD of the creature. I don't want that to cause more confusion, so I hope it doesn't. :)

But yes, according to everything we've been given, that is a correct calculation, sir.
Okay, simple enough. I just wish they had spelled it out. In my pdf I couldn't find it but, it obviously works out correctly.
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