Humans and Demihumans level limits

[rabindranath72]

It may seem strange, but I wish to introduce level limits for demihumans. In particular, I am editing my personal version of the Rules Cyclopedia, fully updated to use the SIEGE engine.

So, I am now facing the "problem" of whether to assign humans the additional Prime, or not, considering that the demihumans have level limits.

Consider that, by directly adapting demihumans according to the RC, they get bonuses to all saving throw categories, so they are advantaged with respect to the demihuman implementations of C&C.

Since I did not participate in the playtesting of Castles & Crusades, I wondered whether humans have an additional prime to compensate the lack of limit advancement of demihumans, or the prime is essential for the dynamics of the SIEGE engine; that is, considering that C&C demihumans already have some advantage with respect to saving throws, if it is necessary that humans have an additional prime for the game to "work".

I would appreciate some comment from "those in the know". Or at least some suggestion.

Cheers,

Antonio

[gideon_thorne]

The third prime, for humans, is intended to offset the advantages of the other races, yes.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

Yeah, if your going to do race limits go ahead and let them have the 3rd Prime.

[rabindranath72]

gideon_thorne wrote:
The third prime, for humans, is intended to offset the advantages of the other races, yes.

So, even if demihumans have bonuses to saving throws, but are limited in advancement, you would give humans two primes?

[phadeout]

I just find in my games, level limits are silly - UNLESS each race has at least ONE class they are unlimited in. This is actually very cool for multi-class characters.

Say Half-Elves have Bard Unlimited, and Mage 10.

If you multi-class, as a Bard/Mage - you can far down the road be a Bard20/Mage10. It basically lets the Mage class become "retired" at 10th, and after that point, the Bard class will "fly" in level since all the experience will be allocated to the bard class from then on (though a 20% experience penalty would be good at that point).

That's how I'd do it, but that's me.

Dwarf - Fighter U

Elf - Mage U

Gnome - Illusionist U

Half-Elf - Bard U (human raised) Druid U (Elf Raised)

Half-Orc - Barbarian U

Halfling - Rogue U

[rabindranath72]

phadeout wrote:
I just find in my games, level limits are silly - UNLESS each race has at least ONE class they are unlimited in. This is actually very cool for multi-class characters.

Say Half-Elves have Bard Unlimited, and Mage 10.

If you multi-class, as a Bard/Mage - you can far down the road be a Bard20/Mage10. It basically lets the Mage class become "retired" at 10th, and after that point, the Bard class will "fly" in level since all the experience will be allocated to the bard class from then on (though a 20% experience penalty would be good at that point).

That's how I'd do it, but that's me.

Dwarf - Fighter U

Elf - Mage U

Gnome - Illusionist U

Half-Elf - Bard U (human raised) Druid U (Elf Raised)

Half-Orc - Barbarian U

Halfling - Rogue U

I was not referring to C&C demihumans, but to the Rules Cyclopedia version. In Classic D&D demihumans were NOT designed to be equivalent, so different XP amounts are used.

My question was whether the bonus Prime for humans was to balance the demihumans, and/or, in the case in which such balance is kept by XP penalties for demihumans, whether the Prime was necessary to keep the humans "functioning" (so, the additional Prime both balances and serves other purposes).

Cheers,

Antonio

[gideon_thorne]

rabindranath72 wrote:
So, even if demihumans have bonuses to saving throws, but are limited in advancement, you would give humans two primes?

Me? No, I'd leave the C&C system as it is for the way races and classes work. While I think the game is lacking some key classes that I used to play, (race classes, mainly) everything else works just fine.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[miller6]

Racial bonuses really only have an impact at lower levels. After that they essentially become mute as characters gain more magic items and spells which compensate for the racial advantages. Therefore, I wouldn't impose any level limits. As for the primes...3 for humans gives tactical players a solid reason NOT to always roll up a demi-human for their advantages over humans (aside from in-game considerations involving biases in societies). Personally, I like it just fine the way it is. Seems like a pretty fair system to me.

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

[Moorcrys]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Me? No, I'd leave the C&C system as it is for the way races and classes work. While I think the game is lacking some key classes that I used to play, (race classes, mainly) everything else works just fine.

Hey Peter,

Any chance that race classes are going to be featured in the CK guide? D'ya know?
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Moorcrys

[Korgoth]

miller6 wrote:
Racial bonuses really only have an impact at lower levels. After that they essentially become mute as characters gain more magic items and spells which compensate for the racial advantages. Therefore, I wouldn't impose any level limits. As for the primes...3 for humans gives tactical players a solid reason NOT to always roll up a demi-human for their advantages over humans (aside from in-game considerations involving biases in societies). Personally, I like it just fine the way it is. Seems like a pretty fair system to me.

Brian Miller

I agree. I think the 3rd prime for humans is an ingenious way of making sure things are balanced from the start. It means that people won't just play demi-humans by default. Because after all, in many games level limits never even become an issue.
_________________
"I despise all weavers of the black arts. Speaking of which, can you pass the gravy?"

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"I didn't know there would be this much talking."

[rabindranath72]

I guess I have not been very clear...I was speaking about demihumans as portrayed in the Rules Cylopedia, not the demihumans in C&C.

I am transforming the demihumans as sort of "templates" to be applied to classes, since in Classic D&D demihumans have certain characteristics which improve with level. In general, I want to maintain the "feeling" of how demihumans work, but I want to "plug" the C&C mechanics in the game.

Just as an example, here is how the D&D halfling would appear in C&C terms:

- +2 to armor class

- +2 to initiative

- +1 to hit with all missile weapons

- at 300,000 XPs, automatic half damage from all harmful spells, 1/4 if ST is successful

- at 2,100,000 XPs, automatic half damage from all breath weapons, 1/4 if ST is successful

- +4 to all saving throws (1st to 3rd level); +5 (4th to 6th); +6 (7th to 8th)

- +10 to hide checks outdoors; +4 to hide checks indoors

So, it is quite more powerful than the C&C halfling.

Therefore I was asking whether giving a further prime to humans served to balance with demihumans. I think that in my case, I will go with a table of XP penalties to be applied to classes, and I will give all two primes.

Cheers,

Antonio

[gideon_thorne]

Moorcrys wrote:
Hey Peter,

Any chance that race classes are going to be featured in the CK guide? D'ya know?

Its a fairly safe bet. I know the trolls have some written. As does Seig.

But I'll be finishing up my own variants at some point. Where those will appear? Dunno.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Dristram]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its a fairly safe bet. I know the trolls have some written. As does Seig.

Cool! I have my own as well. I wonder how close their's will be to mine.

[Treebore]

rabindranath72 wrote:
I guess I have not been very clear...I was speaking about demihumans as portrayed in the Rules Cylopedia, not the demihumans in C&C.

I am transforming the demihumans as sort of "templates" to be applied to classes, since in Classic D&D demihumans have certain characteristics which improve with level. In general, I want to maintain the "feeling" of how demihumans work, but I want to "plug" the C&C mechanics in the game.

Just as an example, here is how the D&D halfling would appear in C&C terms:

- +2 to armor class

- +2 to initiative

- +1 to hit with all missile weapons

- at 300,000 XPs, automatic half damage from all harmful spells, 1/4 if ST is successful

- at 2,100,000 XPs, automatic half damage from all breath weapons, 1/4 if ST is successful

- +4 to all saving throws (1st to 3rd level); +5 (4th to 6th); +6 (7th to 8th)

- +10 to hide checks outdoors; +4 to hide checks indoors

So, it is quite more powerful than the C&C halfling.

Therefore I was asking whether giving a further prime to humans served to balance with demihumans. I think that in my case, I will go with a table of XP penalties to be applied to classes, and I will give all two primes.

Cheers,

Antonio

Based on that I would say yes, give them even another Prime. At the very least. You ma want to consider making humans more "magical" than they are normally presented and give them some racial powers to be able to balance things with more precision.

What comes to my mind is have some kind of random mutations table that humans get to roll on. This shows their "hodgepodge" racial background from being the "mutt" race.

I bet you have some game system with such tables in it sitting on your book shelves.