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What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:24 pm
by Lord Dynel
...or, what things would you like to see clarified or have errata for?

Apparently, a 5th printing is on the horizon, according to the High Troll himself, in this thread, which spawns this post. I think that's a good thing. I kind of hope for more time between printings, myself, but that's my opinion.

Referencing that above thread, I wouldn't mind seeing some clarification on SR 0 and SR 1, based on a post from Steve a while back. I personally would like to have something done with the disengaging rules - I fel they need a little tweak, but that's my opinion. Other than that, I feel the 4th printing is pretty good (other than normal editing, etc.)

Note: Hit the "Submit" before I finished writing my post. :oops:

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:19 pm
by tylermo
Pretty much what you said. Had you discussed disengagement before, LD? Maybe that's what I remembered, instead of grapple. I'd be interested in seeing that thread.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:59 pm
by TheMetal1
Clarify magic item creation

Clarify use of helmets

Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc

Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently

Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:28 pm
by tylermo
Metal, I'm not sure what e-mail or pm Troll said people should contact him at regarding errata, clarifications, and the like. You could run those by him. I'm relatively certain time will be of the essence since the number of 4th printing phb's is dwindling. Matter of fact, I'll be selling a few of them at a con in Illinois this weekend. I'd bet the Trolls want to correct or clarify the essentials, without making radical, sweeping changes. Then again, I'm sure they don't want to be completely out of the main book. New players are cropping up all the time, and what not. Here's to the fifth crusade! Not too many companies can say they haven't changed their core mechanic in over 7 or 8 years time. Combine that with affordable books, adventures, and accessories, and I'd say TLG is one hell of an RPG company.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:08 pm
by tylermo
Regarding the 12 prime vs. the + 6 method...I believe that is covered in the ckg. I suppose the Trolls could consider discussing that in the phb, but it might require changing the overall layout of the book. If so, I suspect that's something they wouldn't want to do at this stage in the game. Far be it for me to say, but add-on's and radical changes(overhauling ev, and the like)would (at the very least) put the 5th printing way behind schedule. Not to mentioned the layout issues. Just my 1cp, as some say.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:50 pm
by TheMetal1
tylermo wrote:Regarding the 12 prime vs. the + 6 method...I believe that is covered in the ckg.
Yeah, I think it is covered in the CKG.

Reference the e-mail, its somewhere on this forum! LOL! But I think Steve was looking for Errata not so much nice to haves, updates or rewrites of things.

The list I gave above are somethings I found confusing and that we've talked a lot about on the forums. I think it would be worth expanding the page count to address these, but I'm not the one paying the publishing costs! Perhaps, what could be helpful, would be to have the trolls for the next printing, if not, then perhaps the 6th printing, start writing out the clarifications now and posting them for us, kind of like the errata and allow us to give them some fan feedback.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:21 pm
by kreider204
I would like these clarifications and errata:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4Nf1f ... andTMGdZdw

That would make it pretty much perfect for me (at least until more errata are discovered ... )

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:41 pm
by MormonYoYoMan
What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Um -- a copy?

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:46 pm
by kreider204
MormonYoYoMan wrote:What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Um -- a copy?
Well, that too. :) Also, I hope they use Walsworth - I prefer the printing quality over the Troll's in-house.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:56 pm
by Lord Dynel
TheMetal1 wrote:<snip>
I don't want to post like I'm nitpciking...I'm not thet type of poster, I promise! :) That said, I do want to discuss the points you brought up, Metal1.
Clarify magic item creation
Agree. There are some things in there that leave a little question.
Clarify use of helmets
Also agree. I've used them as "head AC" and calculate it as 10 + Dex. mod. + helm AC. Against called shots, an opponent would roll against this number. But that isn't official, and I agree that something should be said, officially.
Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. :) I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.
Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me. :P
Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6
As been mentioned before, this one was covered int he CKG.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:59 pm
by tylermo
I have no clue, but I'm not sure if page count is the chief issue. More likely, whether or not added text will shift the current placement of Peter's art, etc. seems like some of his sketches(character classes)were larger size-wise in the 1st printing phb. Seems like some of them were minimized in subsequent printings. Short of one or two sentence clarifications within existing paragraphs, too much additional info might lead to radical layout changes. I'm sure we're more than welcome to discuss this in advance of an eventual 6th printing. I'm game for it. :-) Until then, I'm sure they're hard at work to insure a much-needed restock of the phb. Bring it on.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:08 pm
by MormonYoYoMan
kreider204 wrote:
MormonYoYoMan wrote:What do I hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Um -- a copy?
Well, that too. :) Also, I hope they use Walsworth
That's only because Woolsworth changed its name to Foot Locker.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:33 am
by Sir Ironside
TheMetal1 wrote:Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc
Lord Dynel wrote: This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. :) I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.
I have to agree with Lord Dynel on this one. On the surface it isn't a bad thing to have all the core and supplement books cross-reference each other, but the logistics just don't make sense and if I may quote a common phrase, "It would be a slippery slope."

Not only would it take up a large portion of resources to just cross-reference but, It would mean, in my opinion, that there would expectations that for every future C&C supplement book to be cross-referenced every time a new printing came out.

A very close example would be; The Classic Monsters book. And a down-the-road supplement would be the planar book. An argument could even be made if books like Oriental Adventures, and the like, would benefit from a cross-reference. This is a big job that would be never ending, as long as the supplement was pertinent to the core books.

An argument could also be made for the CKG, but with the book containing a lot of alternate rules and expansion of current rules, I don't see the sense of cross-referencing something that is optional.

My "hope" for the 5th printing is a proper index for both books. The page count would grow (Though it'd grow by only about 2 to 3 pages) and you wouldn't have to reformat anything as the extra pages would be at the back of the book. More so the PH than M&T. (Maybe a M&T Index could list monsters by level.) If this was done for the M&T, and if other monster books would include a index like this, I would consider re-buying all of them. (If for nothing else having all the books with the new logo, for the aesthetics of it, for those who like their books to match.) l'd wait for the sales though. :D

A lesser wish, and one I do believe I'm a minority, I'd like to see subsequent printings change to the matte format than the existing glossy covers. (I know one of the arguments is the C&C books need to be like all the other rpg books, sitting on the shelf, to level the playing field. I say that having them matte would do a better job of having them pop of the shelf, because it is different from the other books and not lost in the sea of gloss. Imagine looking at all those gloss books, on the shelf, and having to move about to counteract the glare, from the lights, obscuring some of the information on the cover. Even picking up the book you have to swivel it around to read what is on the back of the book. Then, as you scan over them you come across a book that doesn't have this problem.)
TheMetal1 wrote:Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently
Lord Dynel wrote:I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me. :P
If I remember correctly, from other threads, if something like move silently, rolling for surprise or tracking, as a non-class character being better than the character class even with not adding level, seems wrong. I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try. (The tracking ability has more leeway depending on the forces of nature or guile of the one being tracked.) Forcing the class vs. non-class ability to be a little wonky, at the beginning. Of course this will not be a problem, at higher levels, but the problem would exist at the lower levels having one of the thief or ranger ability not unique, among the classes in that particular case.

My memory could be wrong though.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:47 am
by tylermo
Seems like there were some issues with the matte covers. Scuffing or imperfections could be spotted on some of the new matte copies of the ckg. I certainly don't speak for all copies. I do agree with Stephen that the "in house" copies opened flat at the table, whereas the glossy Walsworth is a little more tight on the binding. I hope that makes sense. Either way, the glossy phb's and m&t's have been around since the beginnings. The standard has been set, and I think glossy is better for the marketplace.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:51 am
by tylermo
If I get back to facebook tonight, I might leave Stephen a message about the index. The worst a troll can do is say no. ;-)

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:01 am
by Sir Ironside
tylermo wrote:Seems like there were some issues with the matte covers. Scuffing or imperfections could be spotted on some of the new matte copies of the ckg. I certainly don't speak for all copies.
Like I said it is no big deal for me. I'm not going to throw a hissy fit and curse TLG, throwing books on the ground, and vowing to never buy another TLG product till they bend to my will. :lol:
tylermo wrote:I do agree with Stephen that the "in house" copies opened flat at the table, whereas the glossy Walsworth is a little more tight on the binding.
I agree this makes a huge difference.
tylermo wrote:Either way, the glossy phb's and m&t's have been around since the beginnings. The standard has been set
Which is why new printings would eventually become the standard.
tylermo wrote:I think glossy is better for the marketplace.
I don't know anything about how a change in format would affect sales, so I'll just defer to you.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:19 am
by tylermo
Please don't defer to me. I don't know jack "s" about anything. :-) That's just my opinion. I really do prefer the glossy look.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:19 pm
by doominicus
I think the PHB is quite good as it is by now. If a new printing will come out, I hope it will have a short description of armours, weapons and the most exotic items, the capacity and speed of the various animals for trasportation and the rules about throwing and splashing oil, holy water and the like (they are on the CK screen)

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:22 pm
by gideon_thorne
Just a little technical FYI as far as layout goes. Expanding any hard back book needs to be done in 16 page increments due to how its printed. Which, in turn, increases costs of printing depending on where it falls within a certain set of page ranges. Far as adding anything, there just isn't a whole lot of room to do so without expanding page count, since I've actually packed this book pretty tight with some subtle layout tricks. Just thought that would be relevant to know as far as the technical stuff goes. 8-)

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:43 am
by TheMetal1
Sir Ironside wrote:Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?


TheMetal1 wrote:
Cross reference the PHB with the CKG, MT, OGM, etc


Lord Dynel wrote:
This is one I'm going to disagree with, good sir, unless I'm not reading it correctly. :) I agree with the PHB and M&T being cross-referenced, but I don't agree with the other hardbacks. I see them, and the game has too (I think), as optional books. If OG&M, M&ToA, CKG reference the PHB, I'm good with that...but not the other way around, in my opinion.





I have to agree with Lord Dynel on this one. On the surface it isn't a bad thing to have all the core and supplement books cross-reference each other, but the logistics just don't make sense and if I may quote a common phrase, "It would be a slippery slope."
Yeah, I guess that could get a bit much along with then having to add in subsequent books. I think you're spot on with an index though. +1 on that.
Lord Dynel wrote:
Quote:
Clarify prime vs non-prime checks i.e. rogue move silently vs fighter w/ 18 Dex move silently



I thought this was clarified? Standard is not to allow non-class checks, but CK can allow but no adding level. Sorry, this one stumped me. :P
Just thinking that the discussion we had on the forums about the 18 DEX fighter having an initial or on par ability to move silently (though not in utter silence like the rogue) would be a good example to use.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Quote:
Prime 12/18 vs Prime +6



As been mentioned before, this one was covered int he CKG.
Yeah, I was just thinking the option might be helpful in the PHB as it seems both are used with frequency. It is covered in the CKG and quite appropo for that as it's an alternative way of looking at. Kind of on the fence on this. I'm a 12/18 CK myself.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:01 am
by tylermo
Thanks for the info, Peter. Very helpful.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:40 pm
by Arduin
Sir Ironside wrote:I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try.
Per the PHB, a character can attempt to use a non-class ability. pg. 125 ADDING CHARACTER LEVEL TO CHECKS section. I think Picking Pockets & Move Silent are the examples outlined...

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:58 pm
by Lord Dynel
Arduin wrote:
Sir Ironside wrote:I included these three examples because it is hard for a CK to say that the character can't attempt something everyone should at least be able to try.
Per the PHB, a character can attempt to use a non-class ability. pg. 125 ADDING CHARACTER LEVEL TO CHECKS section. I think Picking Pockets & Move Silent are the examples outlined...
As mentioned before, in other threads discussing this particular topic, the Trolls dissuade the the use of non-class abilities. But it is left, ultimately, to the CK.
PHB, page 125 wrote:It is up to the Castle Keeper to decide if such an attempt is even possible. In general, it is recommended that a Castle Keeper should disallow a character a chance of success in attempting a non-class ability.

If a Castle Keeper, for whatever reason, does allow a character to attempt a non-class ability...[the] character does not add his level to the attribute check roll.
I could be mistaken but it seems pretty clear. They don't recommend it BUT they leave it to the CK to decide.

I capitalized and bolded the "but" for one very important reason. The Trolls, in their approach to C&C, seem to be very open-ended and open-minded with the game. Take out what you want, leave what you like, and add whatever makes the game yours. In my conversations with Steve, and the others, here and at cons and such, that seems to be one of the constant points they seem to tout for the game. And I agree with it.

My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era :P).

Please don't take it personally, Arduin, as I don't want this to sound like a personal affront to your post. I just don't see how something like this garners so much attention and/or confusion when it seems to be in the book, in black-and-white: the CK shouldn't allow it but if he does, there's no level added to the check. I feel that it's as clear and as spelled out as it needs to be. :)

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:15 pm
by Arduin
Lord Dynel wrote: My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era :P).
You have NO idea how much I agree with this!

Same exact experience(s) I had DMing 3X...

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:35 pm
by Lord Dynel
Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote: My hope is something that they don't codify or change this from how it is now. It's pretty well spelled out as it is, and I feel that this should be up to the individual CK whether or not they want any ol' PC to try to move silently or pick a pocket. Once it becomes more concrete, then you have players or CKs feeling like they have to do it that way. Twelve, exasperating, years of 3.5 D&D is proof of that (in my experience) - players feel like if they can't find a rule for it, they can't do it. OR if they can find the rule, they have to follow it to the letter. And if a GM tries something that's not spelled out in the rules, god forbid (yeah, I'm a little bitter about the "player entitlement" era :P).
You have NO idea how much I agree with this!

Same exact experience(s) I had DMing 3X...
I think I do have at least a silght idea! :lol:

I love 3.x, don't get me wrong. It brought D&D into a new era and, as much as I love older editions too (I'm actually feeling a lot of affinity and nostalgia towards 2e at the moment :)), I felt it was needed. Not only for a new playerbase, but for D&D's evolution. But with it brought a certain type of player and a certain type of mindset. When I want that, I'll pick up my 3.5 books without hesitation. When I want something with a lighter feel, less constraints, and with more emphasis on roleplaying and story over combat and tactics, then I pick up C&C.

I'll be so bold to say that C&C is darn near perfect. I don't think I've been able to say that about any other rpg before (though, strangely, I feel Marvel Superheroes comes close :P). Sure, it needs a few tweaks here and there - some rule "smoothing," a few clarifications, and some syntax corrections - but I'm crossing my fingers that the Trolls don't mess with the recipe too much. :D

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:23 am
by zacharythefirst
Lord Dynel wrote: I'll be so bold to say that C&C is darn near perfect. I don't think I've been able to say that about any other rpg before (though, strangely, I feel Marvel Superheroes comes close :P). Sure, it needs a few tweaks here and there - some rule "smoothing," a few clarifications, and some syntax corrections - but I'm crossing my fingers that the Trolls don't mess with the recipe too much. :D
You know, I have to agree with this. I thought and thought about it, but honestly, I love it as is. I'll buy a 5th printing for errata and to have another PHB to reference, but C&C is so easy to run and houserule, I really don't feel like anything needs added.

I do like the current trade dress, and hope that would largely stay. I like my matching books. :)

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:27 am
by serleran
I'd expand the book to 172 pages and add in a brief line or two describing the various equipment options, class and race modification (in simple terms), spell and magic item design, a sample dungeon with game play, and a catalog of all available C&C resources.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:21 pm
by Omote
I also have to agree that the C&C game is damn near pefect as is. Errata is a must, obviously. Perhaps a line or two here and there in various spells to clarify things a bit. But, if something needed to be added to the C&C game, I would almost whole-heartedly agree with much of Serleran's post. Pictures of the weapons and armor would sell this game much more. Equipment description would also be a nice addition. I also love the idea of a fully statted out, small dungeon crawl for players and GMs to learn from and read through. Place this dungeon in Aihrde and then sell sequel modules based off of the dungeon in the PHB.

~O

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:52 pm
by alcyone
Get the thrown/flammable liquids from the CK screen into the PHB when you get enough stuff to put in another set of signatures.

Re: What do you hope for with a 5th printing PHB?

Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:52 pm
by tylermo
There are a lot of things the Trolls could do, but I think keeping the book at an affordable price point is crucial. Max price is 45.00 for the PHB and M&T. I sell product at cons from time to time, and I think current pricing is part if the appeal. Not to mention the art, the black and white 1st ed. feel(for some), and the simplicity of the Siege Engine.