Troll Lord Games

I'm serious, there should be something akin to a 2e Kit for Fighters who want to specialize in ranged attacks. The C&C Fighter is so focused on melee that a ranged one would often not even use some of his abilities.

You can use weapon specialization. In reality though, missile combat is most effective en mass. A single person (fighter type) can't really maintain a missile only combat...

IF you use any sort of feat, talent or advantage system (like the one found in the CKG), you can really trick out the base fighter and still maintain the C&C feel to your games. For ranged fighters, the rules regarding raged combat, ROF and the like, found in the CKG will really help to maximize your ranged weapon fighter.

~O

treant_on_fire wrote:I'm serious, there should be something akin to a 2e Kit for Fighters who want to specialize in ranged attacks. The C&C Fighter is so focused on melee that a ranged one would often not even use some of his abilities.

See the Marksman in the Crusader's Companion: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6141913/Castles ... panion.pdf

Also, the Marksman and Archer from Go0gleplex's site:
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Marksman.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Archer.pdf

Aergraith wrote:

treant_on_fire wrote:I'm serious, there should be something akin to a 2e Kit for Fighters who want to specialize in ranged attacks. The C&C Fighter is so focused on melee that a ranged one would often not even use some of his abilities.

See the Marksman in the Crusader's Companion: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6141913/Castles ... panion.pdf

Also, the Marksman and Archer from Go0gleplex's site:
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Marksman.pdf
http://www.angelfire.com/or/FireHorse/Archer.pdf

Haven't checked the other classes yet, but the Marksman seems like it would work.

After edit: Or the Archer, just noticed the fella. :p

Omote wrote:IF you use any sort of feat, talent or advantage system (like the one found in the CKG), you can really trick out the base fighter and still maintain the C&C feel to your games. For ranged fighters, the rules regarding raged combat, ROF and the like, found in the CKG will really help to maximize your ranged weapon fighter.

~O

I haven't checked out the CKG yet, but I feel like if I'm gonna start adding Feats and whatnot, I might as well play 3.5. Although maybe the advantages are pretty streamlined, I haven't checked it out yet.
If there are RoF optional rules that can also lead to a solution. But the fact remains that part of the Fighter's value in XP also has to do with its class abilities. If a player has a style where he never or rarely uses some of those, he's basically wasting XP he earned.

I think that either way I'd go with the Marksman previously mentioned, since it's exactly what I meant, a class for ranged combatants (in the C&C spirit of keeping things streamlined) , but now I'm even more curious to check out the CKG.

treant_on_fire wrote:I haven't checked out the CKG yet, but I feel like if I'm gonna start adding Feats and whatnot, I might as well play 3.5. Although maybe the advantages are pretty streamlined, I haven't checked it out yet.
If there are RoF optional rules that can also lead to a solution. But the fact remains that part of the Fighter's value in XP also has to do with its class abilities. If a player has a style where he never or rarely uses some of those, he's basically wasting XP he earned.

I think that either way I'd go with the Marksman previously mentioned, since it's exactly what I meant, a class for ranged combatants (in the C&C spirit of keeping things streamlined) , but now I'm even more curious to check out the CKG.

I had the same attitude when the CKG first came out, but the Advantage system is very "light" compared to the hundreds of feats in 3.5/PFRPG. I used it and it works well, without compromising C&C's light feel and fast pace.

Even before the CKG I played around with feats in C&C. At a very slow progression (something like 1 at first, 1 at 4th, 1 at 8th, and one at 12th.) It really didnt add that much bulk to the system.

redwullf wrote:

treant_on_fire wrote:I haven't checked out the CKG yet, but I feel like if I'm gonna start adding Feats and whatnot, I might as well play 3.5. Although maybe the advantages are pretty streamlined, I haven't checked it out yet.
If there are RoF optional rules that can also lead to a solution. But the fact remains that part of the Fighter's value in XP also has to do with its class abilities. If a player has a style where he never or rarely uses some of those, he's basically wasting XP he earned.

I think that either way I'd go with the Marksman previously mentioned, since it's exactly what I meant, a class for ranged combatants (in the C&C spirit of keeping things streamlined) , but now I'm even more curious to check out the CKG.

I had the same attitude when the CKG first came out, but the Advantage system is very "light" compared to the hundreds of feats in 3.5/PFRPG. I used it and it works well, without compromising C&C's light feel and fast pace.

I agree with both points. I didn't want feats and I didn't/won't let them in. Advantages, though, are a different story. I haven't played in a lengthy campaign since the CKG was released but in the few arcs I've run, I've had no issues whatsoever with them. I think they would work well and I'll definitely be using them in the future.

One thing you can possibly do is talk to your CK about the Combat Dominance. The Extra Attack works with ranged weapons and, as a CK, I would allow a player to apply Combat Dominance to ranged weapons, too. That would help in getting the most out of your fighter abilities.

treant_on_fire wrote:I'm serious, there should be something akin to a 2e Kit for Fighters who want to specialize in ranged attacks. The C&C Fighter is so focused on melee that a ranged one would often not even use some of his abilities.

I felt the same way when CnC first came out. Here's my home-brew Archer class. I've used it since forever. Nothing special, but it works. I also let a character take an "Aim" instead of any movement on his turn for a +1 to hit with ranged attacks. You could extend it beyond 6th level, but I thought it would be more of a dual-class for a fighter, ranger, or rogue.

ARCHER
The militaries throughout the land consist mostly of foot soldiers, sometimes cavalry, yet the victorious side most often fields a special squad or company of men skilled in the bow: the archer. An army capable of striking the enemy from afar possesses a deadly advantage, and the legends and lore of war are replete with the archer turning the tide of the battle. The Archer is a fighter-type class dedicated to battle with ranged weapons. An Archer focuses his attention and training to the weapons and the tactics of ranged warfare, as well as the upkeep and maintenance of the tools of his craft. An Archer is also a trained combatant, and is capable of engaging in melee. He is not trained in the more demanding weapons and armor of the foot soldiers and knights, but is sufficiently trained in light armor and common melee weapons. Although an Archer typically wields a bow, he can also wield another ranged weapon in keeping with his culture and background, including a crossbow. Archers are not necessarily the product of a military background, they may be hunters, or shire reeves in charge of protecting the king’s wood. Numerous background stories exist for the Archer, for the elegant art of the bow is a lure for many who crave adventure.

Restrictions: Dwarves, Gnomes, and any large size races cannot be Archers. Archers only reach 6th level.
Primary Attribute: Dexterity
Hit Points per level: 1d8
Weapons: all ranged, all standard small and medium melee weapons, no two-handed
Armor: padded, leather coat, leather armor, ring mail, hide, studded leather, leather laminar, mail shirt, and cuir bouille
Shields: any
Class Abilities: weapon specialization, fletcher, accuracy, combat archery, second shot, and called shot
Starting Gold: 3d8x10gp

Level/BTH/Ability/EPP
1/+0/Weapon Specialization, Fletcher/ 0
2/+1/Accuracy/1,751
3/+2/Combat Archery/3,501
4/+3/Far Shot/7,001
5/+4/Second Shot/14,001
6/+5/Called Shot/25,001

Weapon Specialization (1st level): The Archer is, by definition, a ranged weapon specialist, but each character can also specialize in one specific ranged weapon, such as a short bow, long bow, etc. When using this type of weapon, the Archer receives +1 to hit and an increased ranged increment of 25%. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Fletcher (1st level): The Archer is able to construct arrows, bolts, even a bow, when the right tools and materials are available. He is also able to repair a bow or crossbow if it breaks. To accomplish these tasks, all the Archer needs are the tools and time. If the tools and materials are available, an Archer can construct 2d6 arrows per day. He can repair a weapon in 1d6 hours, and construct one in 1d6 days.
Accuracy (2nd level): The Archer’s training and experience with ranged weapons provides him a superior bonus when taking time to aim. An Archer receives a +2 to hit after aiming. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Combat Archery (3rd level): The Archer’s combat experience pays off with improved insight into the combat environment and the effect of his attacks on his opponents. This combat experience translates into the Combat Archery ability. This ability allows the Archer to inflict +3 damage to all ranged attacks within short range (within one range increment.) He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Far Shot (4th level): the Archer receives the ability to make a single attack with no distance penalties up to the weapon’s maximum range after one full round of aiming. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. This ability can only be used with bows.
Second Shot (5th level): The deftness of the Archer’s skill drawing and notching an arrow permits him to shoot quicker. Character can make one additional ranged attack per round. Any aim bonuses apply only to the first shot. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. This ability can only be used with bows.
Called Shot (6th level): The Archer has obtained such mastery over his technique, he can make a special called shot once per day. He can make the called shot up to the maximum range of the weapon. The shot requires one round of aiming, but will automatically hit and inflict maximum damage. The player should roll the attack anyway to check for a fumble or critical hit (if the CK is using those rules.) Moreover, the shot will hit where the character aims—be it an exposed area of an enemy, or a taut gallows rope. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. The CK may decide to permit the character to use this ability a second or third time in a day with a suitable future sacrifice, such as not being able to use it for a week, breaking the bow, etc.

Ieuane wrote:
I felt the same way when CnC first came out. Here's my home-brew Archer class. I've used it since forever. Nothing special, but it works. I also let a character take an "Aim" instead of any movement on his turn for a +1 to hit with ranged attacks. You could extend it beyond 6th level, but I thought it would be more of a dual-class for a fighter, ranger, or rogue.

ARCHER
The militaries throughout the land consist mostly of foot soldiers, sometimes cavalry, yet the victorious side most often fields a special squad or company of men skilled in the bow: the archer. An army capable of striking the enemy from afar possesses a deadly advantage, and the legends and lore of war are replete with the archer turning the tide of the battle. The Archer is a fighter-type class dedicated to battle with ranged weapons. An Archer focuses his attention and training to the weapons and the tactics of ranged warfare, as well as the upkeep and maintenance of the tools of his craft. An Archer is also a trained combatant, and is capable of engaging in melee. He is not trained in the more demanding weapons and armor of the foot soldiers and knights, but is sufficiently trained in light armor and common melee weapons. Although an Archer typically wields a bow, he can also wield another ranged weapon in keeping with his culture and background, including a crossbow. Archers are not necessarily the product of a military background, they may be hunters, or shire reeves in charge of protecting the king’s wood. Numerous background stories exist for the Archer, for the elegant art of the bow is a lure for many who crave adventure.

Restrictions: Dwarves, Gnomes, and any large size races cannot be Archers. Archers only reach 6th level.
Primary Attribute: Dexterity
Hit Points per level: 1d8
Weapons: all ranged, all standard small and medium melee weapons, no two-handed
Armor: padded, leather coat, leather armor, ring mail, hide, studded leather, leather laminar, mail shirt, and cuir bouille
Shields: any
Class Abilities: weapon specialization, fletcher, accuracy, combat archery, second shot, and called shot
Starting Gold: 3d8x10gp

Level/BTH/Ability/EPP
1/+0/Weapon Specialization, Fletcher/ 0
2/+1/Accuracy/1,751
3/+2/Combat Archery/3,501
4/+3/Far Shot/7,001
5/+4/Second Shot/14,001
6/+5/Called Shot/25,001

Weapon Specialization (1st level): The Archer is, by definition, a ranged weapon specialist, but each character can also specialize in one specific ranged weapon, such as a short bow, long bow, etc. When using this type of weapon, the Archer receives +1 to hit and an increased ranged increment of 25%. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Fletcher (1st level): The Archer is able to construct arrows, bolts, even a bow, when the right tools and materials are available. He is also able to repair a bow or crossbow if it breaks. To accomplish these tasks, all the Archer needs are the tools and time. If the tools and materials are available, an Archer can construct 2d6 arrows per day. He can repair a weapon in 1d6 hours, and construct one in 1d6 days.
Accuracy (2nd level): The Archer’s training and experience with ranged weapons provides him a superior bonus when taking time to aim. An Archer receives a +2 to hit after aiming. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Combat Archery (3rd level): The Archer’s combat experience pays off with improved insight into the combat environment and the effect of his attacks on his opponents. This combat experience translates into the Combat Archery ability. This ability allows the Archer to inflict +3 damage to all ranged attacks within short range (within one range increment.) He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted.
Far Shot (4th level): the Archer receives the ability to make a single attack with no distance penalties up to the weapon’s maximum range after one full round of aiming. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. This ability can only be used with bows.
Second Shot (5th level): The deftness of the Archer’s skill drawing and notching an arrow permits him to shoot quicker. Character can make one additional ranged attack per round. Any aim bonuses apply only to the first shot. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. This ability can only be used with bows.
Called Shot (6th level): The Archer has obtained such mastery over his technique, he can make a special called shot once per day. He can make the called shot up to the maximum range of the weapon. The shot requires one round of aiming, but will automatically hit and inflict maximum damage. The player should roll the attack anyway to check for a fumble or critical hit (if the CK is using those rules.) Moreover, the shot will hit where the character aims—be it an exposed area of an enemy, or a taut gallows rope. He loses this ability if he wears armor heavier than permitted. The CK may decide to permit the character to use this ability a second or third time in a day with a suitable future sacrifice, such as not being able to use it for a week, breaking the bow, etc.

Nice, that will fit perfectly into my home brew! thanks for posting.

I may improve the armor list a bit (based on artwork) and add a skill (or tack it onto combat archery) where a "missed" shot won't hit an alley if they are in melee with the target. A fumble ... yeah, but not a miss.