Troll Lord Games

Seriously, what kind of Assassin can't infiltrate someone's home in the middle of the night??? O.o

treant_on_fire wrote:Seriously, what kind of Assassin can't infiltrate someone's home in the middle of the night??? O.o

One who doesn't know how to knock politely?

An assassin who does his job, has keys already, either stolen, or made, would not need the bash approach to murder. That's the less refined, ruffian, rogue way.

No, assassins do not "need" Open Lock. It just makes things easier... for the player.

serleran wrote:An assassin who does his job, has keys already, either stolen, or made, would not need the bash approach to murder. That's the less refined, ruffian, rogue way.

No, assassins do not "need" Open Lock. It just makes things easier... for the player.

It's not that I haven't thought of what you suggested... It just seems extremely odd to me that an assassin would never have picked up that skill. It's one of those things where one goes "Why wouldn't he learn that?"
The thing is, they did give the Assassin Disable Trap. It's just... They can disable traps but can't open locks? I don't know, I feel like the Assassin can't open locks just because they didn't want to take that role away from the Rogue...

Treat the lock like a trap, and the assassin can disable it, which would effectively mean breaking it, and therefore, opening it. Hehe. I get what you're saying. I prefer to combine abilities and just makes something a little more... obvious. In my case, I call the assassin ability what you did: Infiltrate. It covers disguises, locks, traps, and sundry other things. But, I love to modify games. Others like to play as written.

Huh, that is weird. IIRC, 1st ed AD&D gave the assassin all the thief abilities but at a lower level, which always made sense to me. Maybe we need a modification of the assassin for the 5th printing of the PHB ...

Give it to them at 1/2 level bonus. +1 @ 2nd level +2 @ 4th level, etc.

I agree with serl on this one. I think it would just be a "convenience ability" were it given to the assassin. I agree that the assassin shouldn't have to pick a lock to get to his target - he's probably already got a way in, or should have one. I also don't think he needs to be as versatile as the rogue. I read Arduin's suggestion, and while it's not bad, that would be a new way of figuring out an ability and I don't think the game needs that. I think the class abilities and their SIEGE checks need to stay in a uniform manner. The assassin's got a boatload of abilities as it is - if he needs Open Lock, too, to be able to do his job, then maybe he should take up another profession...at least in my opinion.

Looking over the class, disguise would really help getting into guarded areas. Obtaining keys to open locks + their other abilities should suffice. They ARE more suited for urban areas rather than monster filled dungeons. But, that is part & parcel to the class.

But that's the point... If anything, I think disable traps is the one that's out of place for the Assassin. I get that some houses might have traps but...

Even the 1st ed AD&D Assassin could open locks. I think I'd allow it at half level like Ard said, or at level -3 as said in the 1st ed/OSRIC.

treant_on_fire wrote:But that's the point... If anything, I think disable traps is the one that's out of place for the Assassin. I get that some houses might have traps but...

The skill is called "Traps". It is also the ability to set traps. Something an assassin obviously should be able to do in order to kill off a target. It has much more to do with his job than opening locks does...

Arduin wrote:

treant_on_fire wrote:But that's the point... If anything, I think disable traps is the one that's out of place for the Assassin. I get that some houses might have traps but...

The skill is called "Traps". It is also the ability to set traps. Something an assassin obviously should be able to do in order to kill off a target. It has much more to do with his job than opening locks does...

Good point. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned I'd house-rule that Assassins CAN Open Locks at half their level.

Not that I'm DMing a C&C game right now... >_< lol

Kreider, let's not start adding more to the 5th printing phb. Not yet. Stocks of the 4th printing might be lower than you think, or "out". I need this book ASAP. I'm selling product at two more cons(at least). The next one is in late June. I could have all the books in the world, but it's all for naught without the phb. *fingers crossed for the completed new cover and a date with the printer before that time*

treant_on_fire wrote:Anyway, as far as I'm concerned I'd house-rule that Assassins CAN Open Locks at half their level.

Not that I'm DMing a C&C game right now... >_< lol

That's consistent with other versions of this class for sure.

tylermo wrote:Kreider, let's not start adding more to the 5th printing phb. Not yet. Stocks of the 4th printing might be lower than you think, or "out". I need this book ASAP. I'm selling product at two more cons(at least). The next one is in late June. I could have all the books in the world, but it's all for naught without the phb. *fingers crossed for the completed new cover and a date with the printer before that time*

LOL. Okay, okay - I'd be happy with just errata for now.

Now, about that 6th printing ...

I've been thinking about this, and I don't like that Assassins don't have Open Lock of Pick Pocket. Those seem like common Assassin abilities in lots of genres. However, I understand that simply giving them to the Assassin would unbalance the classes a bit. I don't like the old AD&D way of balancing things by making the Assassin operate at a lower level (too messy for the Siege engine), so I was thinking I could balance things by giving a couple of the Assassin abilities to the Rogue - specifically, Case Target and Disguise, abilities that I think would be appropriate for Rogues too. So the ability list would be:

ROGUE ONLY:
Back Attack
Cant
Decipher Script
Sneak Attack

ASSASSIN ONLY:
Death Attack
Poisons

BOTH
Case Target
Climb
Disguise
Hide
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Pick Pocket
Traps

I think this is fairly balanced - even though the assassin has fewer unique skills, they are more powerful ones.

I recognize that this makes the classes quite a bit more similar, but I'm okay with that - I've always thought of the Assassin as a subclass rather than a distinct class anyway.

Thoughts?

kreider204 wrote:I've been thinking about this, and I don't like that Assassins don't have Open Lock of Pick Pocket. Those seem like common Assassin abilities in lots of genres. However, I understand that simply giving them to the Assassin would unbalance the classes a bit. I don't like the old AD&D way of balancing things by making the Assassin operate at a lower level (too messy for the Siege engine), so I was thinking I could balance things by giving a couple of the Assassin abilities to the Rogue - specifically, Case Target and Disguise, abilities that I think would be appropriate for Rogues too. So the ability list would be:

ROGUE ONLY:
Back Attack
Cant
Decipher Script
Sneak Attack

ASSASSIN ONLY:
Death Attack
Poisons

BOTH
Case Target
Climb
Disguise
Hide
Listen
Move Silently
Open Lock
Pick Pocket
Traps

I think this is fairly balanced - even though the assassin has fewer unique skills, they are more powerful ones.

I recognize that this makes the classes quite a bit more similar, but I'm okay with that - I've always thought of the Assassin as a subclass rather than a distinct class anyway.

Thoughts?

I think you're making two similar classes a bit TOO similar at this point. Assassins don't need to do pick-pocketing. Sure it's useful for anyone, but at this point Case Target kind of covers the whole 'learning about your victim' area and pick-pocketing should belong to the Rogue. Using a house rule of letting the Assassin use Open Lock at half-level is a method which is exactly like that used for Class and a Half classes and it works fine, imo. It still leaves the Rogue as the master of opening locks too.
The more I think about it however, the more I'm starting to be fine with an Assassin who can't open locks. If it really bothers the player, he can always multi-class or Class and a Half with Rogue! :p

treant_on_fire wrote:The more I think about it however, the more I'm starting to be fine with an Assassin who can't open locks. If it really bothers the player, he can always multi-class or Class and a Half with Rogue! :p

That's cool - it's definitely all about whatever you're happy with. For my own tastes, I think I can live with Assassins not having Pick Pockets, but I'm still inclined to give them Open Locks. I'd want to give the Rogue something in return though, but I'm sensitive to the issue of making the classes too similar.

I was thinking about a new skill called Case Premises - it's similar to the Assassin's Case Target, but for use on locations rather than people. By analogy, it would allow the Rogue to learn important facts about the area he's about to break into.

Thoughts?

treant_on_fire wrote:The more I think about it however, the more I'm starting to be fine with an Assassin who can't open locks. If it really bothers the player, he can always multi-class or Class and a Half with Rogue! :p

Hey man, as kreider said, that's cool. In the end, as long as you're happy, that's what matters. I agree though, that exploring the multi-class options would be sound choice. A cooler one, too, in my opinion. Maybe drop the seed in his ear to be class-and-a-half assassin/wizard (considering knock's a 2nd level spell ) - that would be cool to see, I think!

My House Rule: Starting at 3rd level Assassins can pick up the Open Locks ability. In order to do this the character must find a Rogue that's at least two levels higher than the Assassin. Training cost is 100 g.p. per level of the Rogue. Training takes 2d4 weeks. At the end of this period the Assassin has to make an intelligence check (CL3). If successful, the Assassin gains the Open Locks ability. However, it comes with the following restrictions.


(1) A permanent -2 to all Open Lock checks.
(2) The Assassin cannot add his levels to his/her Open Lock checks.