It's me again, crashing the party once more with suggested errata.
Missing material/focus spell components : Animate Dead (p.61), Binding (p.63), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (p.65), Control Water (p.67), Control Weather (p.67), Create Undead (p.67), Darkness (p.68), Disintegrate (p.70), Divination (p.71), Earthquake (p.71), Faithful Hound (p.72), Fire Shield (p.73), Hallucinatory Terrain (p.76), Greater Scrying (p.75), Haste (p.76), Hold Animal (p.77), Hold Monster (p.77), Hold Person (p.77), Magic Aura (p.81), Magic Circle (p.81), Major Creation (p.82), Mass Invisibility (p.82), Mirage Arcana (p.83), Protection from Evil, Chaos, Good, Law (p.88), Rainbow Pattern (p.88), Read Magic (p.89), Rope Trick (p.91), Scrying (p.91), Sending (p.92), Tiny Hut (p.100).
[opinion]Also, isn't a 5 gp quartz kind of an expensive component for the 0th level Light spell?[/opinion]
[rant]Come on now, this is the second printing of a 128 pages book based largely on the SRD... TLG, please be more careful with the editing of your future products.[/rant]
Sorry about that. Call me a nitpick but I find it a bit frustrating even though many of these issues may be considered to be minor annoyances by most...
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gideon_thorne
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Metathiax wrote:
[rant]Come on now, this is the second printing of a 128 pages book based largely on the SRD... TLG, please be more careful with the editing of your future products.[/rant]
Sorry about that. Call me a nitpick but I find it a bit frustrating even though many of these issues may be considered to be minor annoyances by most...
Based on the SRD, but not identical too. Much was altered in presentation to conform to a certain design concept.
I'll check with the trolls and see what they say.
But my educated guess is this:
If a focus is mentioned but not specified, it is most likely due to the lack of cost associated with something that is not consumed with the spell. Like a clerics holy symbol for example.
As for material components, some are implied in the text, others are mentioned here and there. Its possible that there is erratta here. But thats for the trolls to determine.
*smiles* Course, this is the first time I've seen this particular suggested erratta anywhere mentioned. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Met, Disintegrate was covered in the first printing errata (lodestone and a pinch of dust) but I didn't see the rest. Personally, I find the V/S/M system of spell components to be simply too annoying to deal with and believe that Castles & Crusades should GET RID of them in the core rule book. That way, if people want those things, they can add them. Perhaps I'm being a bit too cranky tonight, but I'd prefer C&C to be a bit more OD&D-ish in this respect.
As to the quartz, I don't see that as horribly expensive, since quartz is actually rather common. But, that's merely my opinion.
Now...regarding your rant. How many printings did it take for TSR to get the AD&D Monster Manual as correct as could be? Four printings, with three things never corrected: beholder magic resistance, flesh golem movement rate, and the quasit stats on the back cover.
How about the Dungeon Masters' Guide? Six printings (with all changes made at once in that sixth printing, aka the revised edition).
How about the Players' Handbook? Seven printings, and most errors were NEVER corrected in that book.
Now, TSR in the late '70s compared to Troll Lord Games was larger, but not significantly so. It took them two years, and a heck of a lot more printings to get things even close to right. This is before the advent of the personal computer, but the advance in technology should not predicate an advance in perfection. Yes, errors in any game are annoying, and all games have them, INCLUDING Hasbro's own product, which has some twenty pages of it. The point is that people in general seem to think that because the SRD exists, Castles & Crusades should be perfect on its very first try. THAT is not realistic.
Hell, for my own personal copy of the OD&D rules, I've run the text through two major proofreading passes and innumerable more small ones, all over the course of a year plus. This is despite my owning a copy of the 6th printing OD&D box set (aka the original collectors edition white box) and most of the other D&D game rule books as well. Think about it. Despite having the original rule books, and using those books as a basis for my version of the game, I've had to edit, adjust, and tweak the text to something that I can feel comfortable with. So, I know just what the Trolls know: how difficult it is to write, playtest, and edit a role playing game for publication.
*sighs*
I told you I was probably cranky. I guess I was, and I'm sorry.
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As to the quartz, I don't see that as horribly expensive, since quartz is actually rather common. But, that's merely my opinion.
Now...regarding your rant. How many printings did it take for TSR to get the AD&D Monster Manual as correct as could be? Four printings, with three things never corrected: beholder magic resistance, flesh golem movement rate, and the quasit stats on the back cover.
How about the Dungeon Masters' Guide? Six printings (with all changes made at once in that sixth printing, aka the revised edition).
How about the Players' Handbook? Seven printings, and most errors were NEVER corrected in that book.
Now, TSR in the late '70s compared to Troll Lord Games was larger, but not significantly so. It took them two years, and a heck of a lot more printings to get things even close to right. This is before the advent of the personal computer, but the advance in technology should not predicate an advance in perfection. Yes, errors in any game are annoying, and all games have them, INCLUDING Hasbro's own product, which has some twenty pages of it. The point is that people in general seem to think that because the SRD exists, Castles & Crusades should be perfect on its very first try. THAT is not realistic.
Hell, for my own personal copy of the OD&D rules, I've run the text through two major proofreading passes and innumerable more small ones, all over the course of a year plus. This is despite my owning a copy of the 6th printing OD&D box set (aka the original collectors edition white box) and most of the other D&D game rule books as well. Think about it. Despite having the original rule books, and using those books as a basis for my version of the game, I've had to edit, adjust, and tweak the text to something that I can feel comfortable with. So, I know just what the Trolls know: how difficult it is to write, playtest, and edit a role playing game for publication.
*sighs*
I told you I was probably cranky. I guess I was, and I'm sorry.
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gideon_thorne
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Traveller wrote:
Personally, I find the V/S/M system of spell components to be simply too annoying to deal with and believe that Castles & Crusades should GET RID of them in the core rule book. That way, if people want those things, they can add them.
Heh heh heh. Hear hear! I was just pointing that out to Steve myself earlier this evening.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
Fair enough as far as the crankiness goes, I guess I was kind of asking for it with my prodding the Trolls with a stick...
I was by no mean suggesting that the SRD to C&C spell conversion is merely a copy & paste operation but I still feel that the material components should have been included for all the spells since they made the decision of including this feature in the first place. I don't really care to debate on their relevance since I could certainly go on without them. In fact, I generally assume that spellcasters always have a steady supply of mundane spell components at hand.
It's more a question of principle to me and, as much as I understand that producing an error free book may not be realistic for a company of TLG's size at this point (I have written enough non-RPG related stuff to appreciate the difficulties associated with that), I do think that both of the corebooks present an unusually high error/page ratio even when compared with other very small-press RPG publishers... The subjective part of me readily puts this issue aside and very much enjoys the game but my objective side can't help but notice it.
I would also like to add that I don't spend my time dissecting the book in search of errors. In the case of the spell components, I just happened to stumble on many of the spells that were missing the data and then decided to quickly go through the spells section (took me about half an hour), simply verifying if there was a sentence related to material components in the text for those who had a M or F besides the Comp entry.
I unfortunately may end up sounding somewhat of a jerk but my intention is that an eventual 3rd printing will be as solid as it can be...
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I was by no mean suggesting that the SRD to C&C spell conversion is merely a copy & paste operation but I still feel that the material components should have been included for all the spells since they made the decision of including this feature in the first place. I don't really care to debate on their relevance since I could certainly go on without them. In fact, I generally assume that spellcasters always have a steady supply of mundane spell components at hand.
It's more a question of principle to me and, as much as I understand that producing an error free book may not be realistic for a company of TLG's size at this point (I have written enough non-RPG related stuff to appreciate the difficulties associated with that), I do think that both of the corebooks present an unusually high error/page ratio even when compared with other very small-press RPG publishers... The subjective part of me readily puts this issue aside and very much enjoys the game but my objective side can't help but notice it.
I would also like to add that I don't spend my time dissecting the book in search of errors. In the case of the spell components, I just happened to stumble on many of the spells that were missing the data and then decided to quickly go through the spells section (took me about half an hour), simply verifying if there was a sentence related to material components in the text for those who had a M or F besides the Comp entry.
I unfortunately may end up sounding somewhat of a jerk but my intention is that an eventual 3rd printing will be as solid as it can be...
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We all have the same goal really. To make the game as polished as possible. Thus my comment about eliminating the V/S/M spell component system. The point about my entire harangue was that if TSR required a dozen printings between two editions (OD&D, AD&D) and wasn't able to get AD&D perfect, why is Troll Lord Games expected to make Castles & Crusades perfect on the first try?
To put it more succinctly, why are people holding Troll Lord Games to such a high standard? Is it because this is the 21st Century and times have changed? Is it because people have impossibly high expectations of the Trolls? Some mixture of the two?
I really don't know, but it seems to me that people in general have totally unrealistic expectations of both Castles & Crusades and Troll Lord Games. It's been that way since the playtest stage, when we had a bunch of cranks who threw a hissy fit because Castles & Crusades wasn't going to be 1st Edition AD&D reprinted. Obviously, such unrealistic expectations continue to perpetuate.
Oh, and by the way, you're not a jerk and believe me, both the Trolls and I appreciate what you have found in the book. It's simply that the "C&C must be correct on the first try because we want it to be that way" discussions are something that irritates me. Nine times out of ten, the people who make such statements have absolutely no idea just what is involved in creating even a 64 page RPG. You sound like you are the tenth time out of ten, and that's cool.
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To put it more succinctly, why are people holding Troll Lord Games to such a high standard? Is it because this is the 21st Century and times have changed? Is it because people have impossibly high expectations of the Trolls? Some mixture of the two?
I really don't know, but it seems to me that people in general have totally unrealistic expectations of both Castles & Crusades and Troll Lord Games. It's been that way since the playtest stage, when we had a bunch of cranks who threw a hissy fit because Castles & Crusades wasn't going to be 1st Edition AD&D reprinted. Obviously, such unrealistic expectations continue to perpetuate.
Oh, and by the way, you're not a jerk and believe me, both the Trolls and I appreciate what you have found in the book. It's simply that the "C&C must be correct on the first try because we want it to be that way" discussions are something that irritates me. Nine times out of ten, the people who make such statements have absolutely no idea just what is involved in creating even a 64 page RPG. You sound like you are the tenth time out of ten, and that's cool.
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moriarty777
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Unfortunately, no matter where you look, you'll find an over abundance of people with overly high expectations when it comes to these kinds of things.
For one, I'm happy with the work the Trolls have done and continue to do. It's why my hard earned cash go towards their products and why I refer everyone I know to TLG.
I've come across some errata myself as I've been using the book for my game and I simply pass it along. And Traveller, you've also been a BIG help for compiling all of these things...
Kudos to all of you!
Moriarty the Red
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For one, I'm happy with the work the Trolls have done and continue to do. It's why my hard earned cash go towards their products and why I refer everyone I know to TLG.
I've come across some errata myself as I've been using the book for my game and I simply pass it along. And Traveller, you've also been a BIG help for compiling all of these things...
Kudos to all of you!
Moriarty the Red
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Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
Just a few typos I forgot to report :
Under "Primal Fury" (p.18); in the 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph, the "a" following "and" should be removed.
Under "Mnemonic Enhancer" (p.84); there is a missing "e" in the 1st word of the 2nd sentence.
Under "Vision" (p.123); dagger is mispelled "daggar".
Also, concerning the Monk's Fast Healing ability, I'm not sure if the author meant (1d4+1)xlevel HPs or rather 1d4+(1xlevel) HPs. All is well if the first interpretation is the intended one (it is then a very powerful ability!) but maybe the phrasing should be changed to something like "1d4+level HPs" if the latter interpretation is the correct one.
*Edit* I'm repeating these other typos here since they didn't make the cut of your last errata update.
p.80: Levitate description, last sentence; "5 pg" should be written "5 gp".
p.80: Light description, last sentence; "5 pg" should be written "5 gp".
p.94: Spider Climb, SV; "inttelligence" should be written "intelligence".
Trav, thanks again for compiling the errata and putting up with my nagging.
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Under "Primal Fury" (p.18); in the 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph, the "a" following "and" should be removed.
Under "Mnemonic Enhancer" (p.84); there is a missing "e" in the 1st word of the 2nd sentence.
Under "Vision" (p.123); dagger is mispelled "daggar".
Also, concerning the Monk's Fast Healing ability, I'm not sure if the author meant (1d4+1)xlevel HPs or rather 1d4+(1xlevel) HPs. All is well if the first interpretation is the intended one (it is then a very powerful ability!) but maybe the phrasing should be changed to something like "1d4+level HPs" if the latter interpretation is the correct one.
*Edit* I'm repeating these other typos here since they didn't make the cut of your last errata update.
p.80: Levitate description, last sentence; "5 pg" should be written "5 gp".
p.80: Light description, last sentence; "5 pg" should be written "5 gp".
p.94: Spider Climb, SV; "inttelligence" should be written "intelligence".
Trav, thanks again for compiling the errata and putting up with my nagging.
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Understood...I'm now retiring from my fan-editor position and I'll leave it to others to take my place as the unofficial revision-sourpuss.PeelSeel2 wrote:
I want to game. I do not want to be an editor. I do not crae waht the enidtig
is lkie.
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Pretty much all the changes I wanted to see have now finally been made in the errata, that makes me happy and haven't bothered to find any more errata. To me the big errata was the things that were missing from the monsters that should have been there, or things that got confused between writer, publisher and editor (or just disappeared into oblivion because the data was never sent over). So yeah, I've basically retired from looking for errata (whether in the books or on the old forums, I'm pretty sure I got everything from the old forums, which was quite a bit).
Maybe one day, the fan-editor in me will rise up again!
Maybe one day, the fan-editor in me will rise up again!
Two old threads which possibly contain errata :
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames (Barkskin saving throw)
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames (Ghost slam attack)
I'm still technically retired from editing since these finds can't be credited to me...
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http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames (Barkskin saving throw)
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames (Ghost slam attack)
I'm still technically retired from editing since these finds can't be credited to me...
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Here are 2 errors I noticed from the M&T.
Table 4.4B (Random Armor Type) can't be reached from any other table.
Figurines of Wondrous Power have no EXP or GP value (chart says "see description" but no value is provided in description).
Brian
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Table 4.4B (Random Armor Type) can't be reached from any other table.
Figurines of Wondrous Power have no EXP or GP value (chart says "see description" but no value is provided in description).
Brian
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lance double asterik **?
Since I have a knight in my newbie C&C group, for which I am the head newbie, I need some clarification.
2nd edition, Players Handbook, p 41, the equipment section. I see that both Heavy and Light Lance have ** by them but can't find ** in the footnotes. I can find * though. Just need some clearing up before we start our first venture in C&C.
I looked through the Rules and Laws forum and really couldn't locate a similar subject. If its out there and I missed it, I apologize.
Peace, from your eager new student.....
2nd edition, Players Handbook, p 41, the equipment section. I see that both Heavy and Light Lance have ** by them but can't find ** in the footnotes. I can find * though. Just need some clearing up before we start our first venture in C&C.
I looked through the Rules and Laws forum and really couldn't locate a similar subject. If its out there and I missed it, I apologize.
Peace, from your eager new student.....
Re: lance double asterik **?
RPGmonk wrote:
Since I have a knight in my newbie C&C group, for which I am the head newbie, I need some clarification.
2nd edition, Players Handbook, p 41, the equipment section. I see that both Heavy and Light Lance have ** by them but can't find ** in the footnotes. I can find * though. Just need some clearing up before we start our first venture in C&C.
I looked through the Rules and Laws forum and really couldn't locate a similar subject. If its out there and I missed it, I apologize.
Peace, from your eager new student.....
You are right, the ** are nowhere to be found... I'm pretty sure the ** should be removed and replaced with a superscripted 7 beside the Heavy Lance and Light Lance entries. I also think that the Large Mace should lose its superscripted 7 (it doesn't make much sense to me but I might be wrong).
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If the Trolls ever do a 3rd printing I think as many errors as possible should be fixed. So keep it up, those of you willing to do such lists of errors.
I still hope that C&C becomes popular enough to require 20 reprintings, so it should be perfected at some point.
I still hope that C&C becomes popular enough to require 20 reprintings, so it should be perfected at some point.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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gideon_thorne
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Treebore wrote:
If the Trolls ever do a 3rd printing I think as many errors as possible should be fixed. So keep it up, those of you willing to do such lists of errors.
I still hope that C&C becomes popular enough to require 20 reprintings, so it should be perfected at some point.
Have no doubt, there is to be a third printing. Soon actually.
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Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
gideon_thorne wrote:
Have no doubt, there is to be a third printing. Soon actually.
I find that to be encouraging and very happy news. I hope that means C&C is spreading like a nasty virus. Or even just a slow and methodical virus.
Very good to hear.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: lance double asterik **?
Metathiax wrote:
You are right, the ** are nowhere to be found... I'm pretty sure the ** should be removed and replaced with a superscripted 7 beside the Heavy Lance and Light Lance entries. I also think that the Large Mace should lose its superscripted 7 (it doesn't make much sense to me but I might be wrong).
Thats what I was assuming, but I just wanted to make sure...
Thanks!
Traveller's website is leading to a 404 error... i wanted to print the errata, with M&T at my hands now and starting to rad it I wanted to make sure I ahd the most up to date version of the rules...
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Nifelhein wrote:
Traveller's website is leading to a 404 error... i wanted to print the errata, with M&T at my hands now and starting to rad it I wanted to make sure I ahd the most up to date version of the rules...
Direct links (though the site IS working as of this post)
http://www.geocities.com/cnctraveller/c ... rrata2.pdf
http://www.geocities.com/cnctraveller/c ... errata.pdf
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Thanks traveller, I used the link on your sign ad apparently it is not the same site, so that might have been the issue.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Nifelhein wrote:
Thanks traveller, I used the link on your sign ad apparently it is not the same site, so that might have been the issue.
Thanks. I took down the redirect, and forgot to change my signature.
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gideon_thorne
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Dristram wrote:
Awesome! Can you speak on the changes for the 3rd printing? Like will it be just fixes of errata and some clarifications done, or will there be new things and changes in layout?
Its just erratta fixes. The way we have that book cramed, there really isn't any room for anything new. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
I know I've said I wouldn't report anymore errata but I guess I'm just not trustworthy enough with the coming of new printings and all...
Typos/Grammar for the PHB :
p.8 : Strength; last sentence, should maybe specify weight unit (I know, it's kind of obvious...).
p.9 : Class Description Terminology; under "armor", 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence, "class's"? (I might be wrong but it looks kind of weird).
p.13 : Survival; 4th sentence, "die" should be "dice".
p.13 : Favored Enemy; last sentence, "combat bonus' of ability" should be "combat bonuses of this ability"?
p.66 : Contact Other Plane; under "failed saving throw", 2nd sentence, "entirety" should be "entirely".
p.77 : Hypnotism; 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence, "hypnosis" should be "hypnotism".
p.112 : Saving Throws; 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence, "uniue" should be "unique".
If the Trolls are interested and if there's enough time before the next printings, I would volunteer to go through both of the core books for an editing run. I could edit in "typos and grammar only" mode or in "annoying nit-pick" mode depending on the Trolls' preference. "Annoying nitpick" mode would include any minor presentation inconsistencies (such as spacings, capital letters, abbreviations, etc.) I will find along the way (there are many). It all depends on the available time frame but be warned that I'm no professional editor. English ain't even my first language for that matter... The worst case scenario would be printing partially corrected versions. Would I be wasting my time?
A concerned (insane) crusader
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Typos/Grammar for the PHB :
p.8 : Strength; last sentence, should maybe specify weight unit (I know, it's kind of obvious...).
p.9 : Class Description Terminology; under "armor", 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence, "class's"? (I might be wrong but it looks kind of weird).
p.13 : Survival; 4th sentence, "die" should be "dice".
p.13 : Favored Enemy; last sentence, "combat bonus' of ability" should be "combat bonuses of this ability"?
p.66 : Contact Other Plane; under "failed saving throw", 2nd sentence, "entirety" should be "entirely".
p.77 : Hypnotism; 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence, "hypnosis" should be "hypnotism".
p.112 : Saving Throws; 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence, "uniue" should be "unique".
If the Trolls are interested and if there's enough time before the next printings, I would volunteer to go through both of the core books for an editing run. I could edit in "typos and grammar only" mode or in "annoying nit-pick" mode depending on the Trolls' preference. "Annoying nitpick" mode would include any minor presentation inconsistencies (such as spacings, capital letters, abbreviations, etc.) I will find along the way (there are many). It all depends on the available time frame but be warned that I'm no professional editor. English ain't even my first language for that matter...
The worst case scenario would be printing partially corrected versions. Would I be wasting my time?A concerned (insane) crusader
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
For some reason i feel M&T deserves a clear statement of how the Xp entry for monsters is given, I felt really stupid when I read through it two days ago and did not understand, but in the end I was not all that stupid, the entry is really not so clear, with the new monsters and all.
Thanks to searches here and on dragonsfoot I managed to understand it clearly though.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Thanks to searches here and on dragonsfoot I managed to understand it clearly though.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Quote:
For some reason i feel M&T deserves a clear statement of how the Xp entry for monsters is given
I think the numbers given in the XP calculation examples have been fixed in the errata. I couldn't figure it out on my first read-through either.
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"Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy." author unknown
My C&C Page
My House Rules v8
Actually I failed to find a good reference that the Xp given in a monster entry accounts for base Xp plus a number to be added for each hp point the creature has.
After that the doubts and feelings went all down hill...
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
After that the doubts and feelings went all down hill...
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.