Long Overdue Errata Updates

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:05 am

If it helps you any, I don't use the XP system in M&T. I have a different one, which I feel better portrays the power of the critters. I mean, a 38 HD dragon with level 12 magic-user ability and a breath weapon that can kill cities.... yeah, its XP value should be about double, or triple, what it is.

Nifelhein · Post by **Nifelhein** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:32 am

Hmmm, if you have already made that a possibility on th M&T then i think it helps me a bit yes.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:30 pm

I may have found another example of errata. In this case, it is for Spell Resistance. Both the M&T and PHB have an entry explaining Spell Resistance but they also contradict each other.

In the PHB, it states that the caster adds his Int bonus to the SR roll where as in the M&T it states this roll is unmodified.

I submit that one of these two is therefore incorrect and with how Magic Resistance has worked out in the past, and some related conversations in various threads, I have a feeling that the PHB entry should be changed to reflect the M&T one.

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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:31 am

moriarty777 wrote:
I may have found another example of errata. In this case, it is for Spell Resistance. Both the M&T and PHB have an entry explaining Spell Resistance but they also contradict each other.

In the PHB, it states that the caster adds his Int bonus to the SR roll where as in the M&T it states this roll is unmodified.

I submit that one of these two is therefore incorrect and with how Magic Resistance has worked out in the past, and some related conversations in various threads, I have a feeling that the PHB entry should be changed to reflect the M&T one.

Moriarty the Red

I have already reported this earlier in this thread.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:14 am

Metathiax wrote:
I have already reported this earlier in this thread.

The thread... so long... I just couldn't remember!

As long as it gets caught and updated!

Hell if we manage to iron out the big bugs going into a 3rd printing... I might even splurge for one of those collector copies!

M
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:43 pm

I >think Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:02 pm

ChaosImp's and old school gamer's observations made me want to check the treasure portion of the M&T for other "missing" (on purpose or by oversight) spells which are nonetheless refered to.

In the M&T :

p.116 : Ring of Elemental Command; Soften Earth or Stone (missing from the PHB but could be replaced by the similar Transmute Mud and Rock), Stoneskin (missing from the PHB with no real equivalent), Stone Shape (should be replaced by Shape Stone or Wood), Flaming Sphere (missing from the PHB and its closest relative would be Produce Flame).

p.121 : Helm of Opposite Alignment; Miracle (missing spell but could maybe be replaced by Distort Reality).

p.121 : Periapt of Foul Rotting; Miracle (same as above).

p.123 : Deck of Many Things; under "The Void", Miracle (same as above).

p.123 : Moaning Diamond; Stone Shape (should be renamed as Shape Stone).

p.124 : Orbs of Dragonkind; Domination (missing spell).

p.124 : Shadowstaff; Nightshade (missing description).

p.124 : Staff of the Magi; Mage Armor (missing from the PHB).

*EDIT* In the PHB, p.58, Shades should be indexed to page 92 instead of 87.
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:42 pm

Wow Metathaix, you're a mad man when it comes to finding this kind of stuff!

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:57 pm

Quote:
you're a mad man

That I am!
It's my way of compensating for my (sometimes harsh) criticisms...

Hopefully, this way, the books won't need 10 printings before being about as error-free as possible. I think it will make C&C an even better game for all crusaders. 8)
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:14 am

I've gotten all this errata down in a text file, along with a new candidate from another thread. I'll work on this one when time permits and will "git'r done".
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:42 am

That sounds great! Thanks again for this. One question / suggestion for the errata files though. I may have missed this but in cast I haven't, is there a place on the file where you write a revision number or date? Sort of a 'Last updated on...' ? Or maybe on the site itself...

It will help with determining if the errata files people have on hard are the latest or not.

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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:18 am

Actually, no. I never bothered with putting version numbers or a date on the document. I simply didn't feel it was necessary, it being far better to just mention to people that the latest version of the errata was available at my pages and let them decide for themselves whether to download the updated PDF or not.

Dates were useless because there are times when I'd update the PDF three or four times in a single day. Because of certain other games using computer nomenclature to define themselves, I have a major aversion to following suit and using version numbers. Of course, I've always marched to the beat of a different drummer....
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Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:39 am

Metathiax wrote:
Hopefully, this way, the books won't need 10 printings before being about as error-free as possible. I think it will make C&C an even better game for all crusaders. 8)

From all that's been done, I'm excited about the 3rd printing. I hope much care is taken in not adding more typos. Typos can happen more because of editing errata.

I'm curious to see if the layout will change again.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:32 pm

Dristram wrote:
I'm curious to see if the layout will change again.

Not that I am aware of. Since I'm the one what's doing it. ^_~`
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:56 pm

Dristram wrote:
From all that's been done, I'm excited about the 3rd printing. I hope much care is taken in not adding more typos. Typos can happen more because of editing errata.

I'm curious to see if the layout will change again.

I am also excited about the 3rd printing of the PHB. Error-free is a good selling point now-a-days because of mega-corps huge budgets to make errors as minimal as possible. One of the problems I ran into with the first print run of the PHB is the number of errors that were in it. Believe it or not, this alone turned away one of my players. PHB2 came a long way in making the book read better, but a few critical errors remained.

I'm very glad we are on the verge of the 3rd printing. Let's make it so Crusaders, get that 2nd print run sold out!!!

.............................................Omote

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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:35 pm

As suggested by Dristram and others, the effects of Holy/Unholy Water should be added in the Bless Water spell description (p.64).
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:01 am

Hmm,

I'd like to see the Spear errata'd to be a 1-handed melee weapon. The reason is, well, thats basically what the traditional spear was throughout history. A throwing spear is a javelin. A 2-handed spear is a long spear. I have no clue what motivated Monte Cook to have the Spear become a 2-handed weapon when D&D 3.5 came out as its rather ridiculous when you sit and think about it.

If you require proof, might I suggest you peruse the following links:
The Battle of Hastings, 1066.com They have the entire Bayeux Tapestry online. Pay close attention to the Shield-Wall sections. A number of panels (4, 6 - 12, 19, 21, 25 - 34) show both Infantry and Cavalry formations in both the Norman and Anglo-Saxon armies with spears used as melee weapons in conjunction with shields. And these are not necessarily small shields either, as the Norman Kite shield was quite large.

If thats not enough, here is a page dedicated to Viking/Anglo-Saxon/Norman era reenacting: Regia Anglorum Reenactor's site. Information is provided and the bottom of the page shows people using shields and spears. Whats more, it clearly differentiates between the throwing spear and the thrusting spear.

Dristram · Post by **Dristram** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:33 am

Keolander wrote:
I have no clue what motivated Monte Cook to have the Spear become a 2-handed weapon when D&D 3.5 came out as its rather ridiculous when you sit and think about it.

Actually, there is a one-handed spear called the "shortspear".

Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:21 pm

Keolander wrote:
Hmm,

I'd like to see the Spear errata'd to be a 1-handed melee weapon. The reason is, well, thats basically what the traditional spear was throughout history. A throwing spear is a javelin. A 2-handed spear is a long spear. I have no clue what motivated Monte Cook to have the Spear become a 2-handed weapon when D&D 3.5 came out as its rather ridiculous when you sit and think about it.

If you require proof, might I suggest you peruse the following links:
The Battle of Hastings, 1066.com They have the entire Bayeux Tapestry online. Pay close attention to the Shield-Wall sections. A number of panels (4, 6 - 12, 19, 21, 25 - 34) show both Infantry and Cavalry formations in both the Norman and Anglo-Saxon armies with spears used as melee weapons in conjunction with shields. And these are not necessarily small shields either, as the Norman Kite shield was quite large.

If thats not enough, here is a page dedicated to Viking/Anglo-Saxon/Norman era reenacting: Regia Anglorum Reenactor's site. Information is provided and the bottom of the page shows people using shields and spears. Whats more, it clearly differentiates between the throwing spear and the thrusting spear.

The warriors of antique Greece and Rome apparently also used their spears one-handed along with a shield (maybe the most used armament combination in ancient warfare). Shields were probably the most valued pieces of armor of ancient times. It's unfortunate that they "officially" only award a partial +1 to AC. What would a warrior rather have, a padded armor or a large shield? Hmm, the choice sounds pretty obvious to me and yet a padded armor is mechanically superior. Shields (and spears!) seem to be highly underated in most fantasy RPGs. I remedied to the situation...
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:50 am

Dristram wrote:
Actually, there is a one-handed spear called the "shortspear".

Yes, which is a thrown-weapon and not a melee weapon. I don't care about that, its the Spear I care about, which was primarily an infantry weapon. It was also primarily used in conjunction with the shield (most warriors in the Dark Ages could not afford decent body armour like mail, so had to rely on their shield moreso than people realise).

Alto Banor · Post by **Alto Banor** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:44 am

Keolander wrote:
Hmm,

I'd like to see the Spear errata'd to be a 1-handed melee weapon. The reason is, well, thats basically what the traditional spear was throughout history. A throwing spear is a javelin. A 2-handed spear is a long spear.

Well, it's hard to determine what is a long spear. A spear that is at least 1.5 feet longer than a person is tall should be considered a long spear with respect to that person. With that in mind, that is a 2-handed spear. You could probably use it one-handed but you would have to choke up on it and it would become un-wieldy.. (is that a word?). Wielding a 7-8 foot spear is VERY HARD with one hand. You could certainly stab with it straight forward but any side movement would be difficult.

Keolander wrote:
Hmm,

I have no clue what motivated Monte Cook to have the Spear become a 2-handed weapon when D&D 3.5 came out as its rather ridiculous when you sit and think about it.

I think I do.... Mr Cook probably had some influence from the warriors of the far east. They use their spears with 2 hands and no shields. Check out Jet Li's latest movie "Fearless." There is a fight between a western fighter and an eastern fighter and both are using long spears with 2 hands. Good Fight!!

Alto
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:31 am

Quote:
Wielding a 7-8 foot spear is VERY HARD with one hand.

Not according to the reenactor's of Regia Anglorum nor historical manuscripts showing warriors of the Dark Ages doing just that. I will readily admit to not knowing personally about that (as I do American Civil War reenacting), but generally I tend to believe reenactors when they speak these sorts of things.

Alto Banor · Post by **Alto Banor** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:03 am

I went out to their site and I saw the same amount of fighters using spears one-handed as well as two-handed. As I thought, they did choke up on the spears when using one-handed. This doesn't conclusivly say that spears were used one or two handed.

There is no reason why you couldn't have the same spear used both one and two handed. Just increase the damage if used two-handed to allow for extra damage due to increased leverage.

Alto
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:03 pm

Here's some other potential errata. This stuff has been reported elsewhere by other forum members but I think it's more convenient to have it compiled here.

PHB :

p.22; should Sharp Senses really be associated to an attribute at all?

M&T :

p.40; in Frost Giant's "Special" entry, "Vul. to Cold" should be "Vul. to Fire".

p.105; for Bag of Tricks, stats are missing for the Bat, Badger, Wolverine, and Rhinoceros.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Alto Banor wrote:
This doesn't conclusivly say that spears were used one or two handed.

And the fact that there are carvings, illuminations and tapestries (specifically the Bayeux Tapestry) showing one-handed Spears being used in conjunction with shields? Spefically, not Spears that are thrown?

Alto Banor · Post by **Alto Banor** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:56 pm

Keolander wrote:
And the fact that there are carvings, illuminations and tapestries (specifically the Bayeux Tapestry) showing one-handed Spears being used in conjunction with shields? Spefically, not Spears that are thrown?

I will concede that there were warriors that used a spear one-handed with a shield. I will also point out that you still can use a spear two-handed.

The beauty of C&C is that if you desire a stat for one-handed spear and a different stat for two-handed spear, you just create it. It's just that easy.

Alto
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:02 am

Errata for the M&T?

I know that there has already been some of this but I'd like to call attention to the Lion once more. In the Errata, it states that the HD should be 5 not 4 and in the M&T description it goes on to describe the smaller cougars. It gives revised stats for what is described a smaller creature.

However, is this same cougar supposed to do more damage than the larger Savannah lion? (a cougar doing 1d4+1 with claws while an actual lion does 1d4?)

Just curious... it may not be an errata but I was reviewing info for 'Lion in the Ropes' which I'm running tomorrow evening.

Thanks,

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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:20 pm

Another batch of potential errata for the PHB found by Kaze :

p.46; under "Wizards and Illusionists", last sentence of the 2nd paragraph, should "or low" and "or take away from the typical number of daily spells gained" be removed?

p.120; under "Hit Points", last sentence of the 4th paragraph, the way that the 3d12+4 notation is used is contradictory with what is explained under "Dice" on p.6, according to which 4 should be added to the total value of the 3d12 and not on each individual die.

p.125; 4th paragraph, should the surprise rolls be adjusted by the characters'/creatures' level/HD?

p.125; end of the 7th paragraph, as written, Suryc's roll should give her a total of 18 instead of 19.

p.125; 3rd sentence of the 9th paragraph, spacing error for "a ll" which should be "all".
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Metathiax · Post by **Metathiax** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:24 am

As discussed here, the description of the Dryad's Wild Empathy special ability is missing (p.28 of the M&T).

Also, the Blur spell's description (p.64 of the PHB) doesn't seem to fit with the one stated on p.57 : "Attacks miss subject 20% of the time". Wouldn't that make it a +4 bonus to AC instead of +2?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:15 pm

Metathiax wrote:
Also, the Blur spell's description (p.64 of the PHB) doesn't seem to fit with the one stated on p.57 : "Attacks miss subject 20% of the time". Wouldn't that make it a +4 bonus to AC instead of +2?

This isn't eratta.

And this is why:

from Steve: you start with a 10 AC going up to a 20; 10% would be 1 20%would be 2; 30% would be 3 and so on.

Don't ask me to make sense of it. Thats just the explanation I was given.
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