Troll Lord Games

The issue of Cleric Turning has appeared on these threads more than a few times, and seems to have popped up again.

Perhaps my solution will clarify the issue, once and for all. Clerics should be turned on a slow rotisserie until the crust is golden brown, while seasoning lightly with bath salts.

I think Evil High Priests may require a few hours of marinating first.

What's a cleric turning?


On a more serious note, there is no problem with cleric turning as far as I'm concerned. Just takes a thorough read-through of the rule and it's pretty clear.

what I want to know, is what way are they turning? Left or right?

You may recall there was a table for cleric turning back in 1st edition. When the cleric was high enough, it could automatically turn lower-level undead creatures. Evil clerics could turn paladins.

Long ago, a party my including my paladin encountered an evil priestess and her retinue. We didn't realize we were in a very, very Bad Place until she turned my paladin, who was 7th level at the time.

Without rolling.

The rest of the group immediately surrendered...

I always thought turning Paladins was really stupid. Just IMO.

Relaxo wrote:I always thought turning Paladins was really stupid. Just IMO.

I suppose this would only work in worlds where Evil is more powerful than Good, or where there's a Much More Powerful god of Balance (Neutrality/what-have-you) that insists Evil must win exactly as often as Good. But it seems like either type of world would eventually stagnate and die.

MormonYoYoMan wrote:The issue of Cleric Turning has appeared on these threads more than a few times, and seems to have popped up again.

Perhaps my solution will clarify the issue, once and for all. Clerics should be turned on a slow rotisserie until the crust is golden brown, while seasoning lightly with bath salts.

You're taking a lot of chances doing that with Clerics. You'd likely come back to find them off the spit and standing in the middle of the fire pit with someone who has the appearence of a god. And besides, In the last week or so those Bath Salts have been causing all kinds of real world cannibals to manifest, so you're seasoning choice is a little off.

CKDad wrote:You may recall there was a table for cleric turning back in 1st edition. When the cleric was high enough, it could automatically turn lower-level undead creatures. Evil clerics could turn paladins.

Long ago, a party my including my paladin encountered an evil priestess and her retinue. We didn't realize we were in a very, very Bad Place until she turned my paladin, who was 7th level at the time.

Without rolling.

The rest of the group immediately surrendered...

In C&C, an evil cleric can attempt to turn a paladin, but what about when the paladin reaches 6th level and gains immunity to fear? Does this mean only paladins of 5th level or less can be turned? If we look at it as written, it appears so.

Thoughts?

Turning doesn't generate a fear aura, but is more like a repulsion field. Therefore the paladin's protection from fear wouldn't trigger, and thus the paladin would be turned.

MormonYoYoMan wrote:The issue of Cleric Turning has appeared on these threads more than a few times, and seems to have popped up again.

Perhaps my solution will clarify the issue, once and for all. Clerics should be turned on a slow rotisserie until the crust is golden brown, while seasoning lightly with bath salts.

This only works on Gnomes and Hobbits. Clerics tend to be fryers.

Traveller wrote:Turning doesn't generate a fear aura, but is more like a repulsion field. Therefore the paladin's protection from fear wouldn't trigger, and thus the paladin would be turned.

After a more careful reading of the rules, I agree with this. The words "flee" and "cower" in the description of the effects of the turning gave me a false assumption that it is a fear aura.

Interesting, so an evil cleric that is of lower level than a paladin could have a decent chance of turning.

So... a 3rd level evil cleric with a +2 Wis mod would have to get a 13 or higher to turn a 6th level paladin for 10 rounds + cha mod.

14 or higher for a 7th level paladin
15 or higher for a 8th level paladin and so on...

Paladins are in serious danger when facing evil clerics!

Kayolan wrote:Paladins are in serious danger when facing evil clerics!

True, but then, going up against the representative of an evil god is supposed to be scary.


I haven't house-ruled this in my game, but I have considered it, since I, too, find the idea of paladins being turned doesn't match my personal take on paladins (as real true believers and warriors for their faith/deity). It hasn't been house-ruled because I haven't sent a truly competent evil cleric against my players. That will change in the coming months, hopefully.

Kayolan wrote:

Traveller wrote:Turning doesn't generate a fear aura, but is more like a repulsion field. Therefore the paladin's protection from fear wouldn't trigger, and thus the paladin would be turned.

After a more careful reading of the rules, I agree with this. The words "flee" and "cower" in the description of the effects of the turning gave me a false assumption that it is a fear aura.

Interesting, so an evil cleric that is of lower level than a paladin could have a decent chance of turning.

So... a 3rd level evil cleric with a +2 Wis mod would have to get a 13 or higher to turn a 6th level paladin for 10 rounds + cha mod.

14 or higher for a 7th level paladin
15 or higher for a 8th level paladin and so on...

Paladins are in serious danger when facing evil clerics!

And if the cleric is 5 levels higher than the paladin, the PCs character is reduced to a puff of ash!

Also, given that evil clerics can take permanent control of undead that they "turn" it is a wonder that evil clerics don't spend their time raiding old tombs and battlefields to gather unto themselves an undead army and sweep the good nations from the land as the new Dark Lord begins a new Dark Age where the weak cower and ...

Uh, Kayolan, I have an idea for my next character in your game

DMSamuel wrote:

Kayolan wrote:Paladins are in serious danger when facing evil clerics!

True, but then, going up against the representative of an evil god is supposed to be scary.


I haven't house-ruled this in my game, but I have considered it, since I, too, find the idea of paladins being turned doesn't match my personal take on paladins (as real true believers and warriors for their faith/deity). It hasn't been house-ruled because I haven't sent a truly competent evil cleric against my players. That will change in the coming months, hopefully.

I agree that it's supposed to be scary, but a paladin is really the best sort of fighter you can send against an evil cleric, and they are the ones that get the shaft the easiest?

Even a 1st level cleric in the above example would have a 15 or higher chance on a d20 to turn a 6th level paladin?!

Regarding the paladin thing, another thought...

Perhaps the Paladin gets turned or ashed because they get the whole ire of the evil cleric's deity focused on them - so the evil cleric literally channels the deity's power against the paladin, allowing the cleric to turn the paladin (or destroy them). This would not violate the "paladin as warrior of the faith" ideal, and it could actually cause the paladin to repent for turning in the face of evil... I see a story-line here. The paladin hasn't lost his faith, but they are definitely shamed. They must redeem themselves, but only internally - their deity is probably not upset (depending on the deity of course), so they are on a personal quest of redemption.

DMSamuel wrote:Regarding the paladin thing, another thought...

Perhaps the Paladin gets turned or ashed because they get the whole ire of the evil cleric's deity focused on them - so the evil cleric literally channels the deity's power against the paladin, allowing the cleric to turn the paladin (or destroy them). This would not violate the "paladin as warrior of the faith" ideal, and it could actually cause the paladin to repent for turning in the face of evil... I see a story-line here. The paladin hasn't lost his faith, but they are definitely shamed. They must redeem themselves, but only internally - their deity is probably not upset (depending on the deity of course), so they are on a personal quest of redemption.

With level 1 acolytes having roughly a 25+% chance each of turning a paladin, as well as the higher chances with the priests, I see a LOT of shaming going on in the future.

Kayolan wrote:With level 1 acolytes having roughly a 25+% chance each of turning a paladin, as well as the higher chances with the priests, I see a LOT of shaming going on in the future.

Haha - let's hope so!

Turning has HD limits that can be turned, or in the noted case of rebuking above controlled, so the Undead army is limited for evil clerics..

Similarly, the turned Paladin is only forced to a distance for a limited time, once the time is up they can come roaring back. Since they were successfully turned I would say the Cleric can take another crack at it. I'd give the Paladin a save against the turning to be mentally aware and not "cower in fear", they would still have to move back at full move rate (aka flee with dignity and speaking boldly about the holy wrath the will follow when he (she) returns).. this slight face save for the PC follows all the rules.. kind of like a protester having to stay behind the police tape.

I don't like forcing too much on Paladins, but turn about is fair play as they say..

Captain_K wrote:I don't like forcing too much on Paladins, but turn about is fair play as they say..

I see what you did there. Bravo.

I give Paladins a Charisma save to avoid turning, (when I remember to try to turn them). I have only done it twice and so far they have made their save.

I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

Treebore wrote:I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

Yup. Those are the questions I had back in 1e days too. Would make more sense to turn Clerics.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

Yup. Those are the questions I had back in 1e days too. Would make more sense to turn Clerics.

My best guess is they thought the Paladin was a bit over powered, so threw Turning in as a "Achille's Heel". I can only guess they never played Clerics up to the higher levels, since Paladins, over all, are far weaker. Unless they get their hands on a Holy Avenger, then they become pretty darn scary.

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

Yup. Those are the questions I had back in 1e days too. Would make more sense to turn Clerics.

My best guess is they thought the Paladin was a bit over powered, so threw Turning in as a "Achille's Heel". I can only guess they never played Clerics up to the higher levels, since Paladins, over all, are far weaker. Unless they get their hands on a Holy Avenger, then they become pretty darn scary.

I always considered the Holy Avenger, as written, pretty much an artifact/relic level item. As such, a level 18-20 item, maybe... A Paladin "finding" one had reason to update their Will in my game as it signaled dangerous confrontation close at hand.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

Yup. Those are the questions I had back in 1e days too. Would make more sense to turn Clerics.

My best guess is they thought the Paladin was a bit over powered, so threw Turning in as a "Achille's Heel". I can only guess they never played Clerics up to the higher levels, since Paladins, over all, are far weaker. Unless they get their hands on a Holy Avenger, then they become pretty darn scary.

I always considered the Holy Avenger, as written, pretty much an artifact/relic level item. As such, a level 18-20 item, maybe... A Paladin "finding" one had reason to update their Will in my game as it signaled dangerous confrontation close at hand.

Yeah, that 50% MR AND the ability to pretty much constantly cast Dispel Magic is pretty ugly. I don't recall how its different in C&C.

Captain_K wrote:
... they would still have to move back at full move rate (aka flee with dignity and speaking boldly about the holy wrath the will follow when he (she) returns).. this slight face save for the PC follows all the rules.. kind of like a protester having to stay behind the police tape.

...

And they would still be in bow range ... I can see a tight lipped Paladin being forced back from the presence of evil. Then when the reach the very edge of the evils push turning grabbing the ranger's bow and arrow and making a god call to right the wrong and punish the representative of evil and letting loose an arrow or 3 ...

Treebore wrote:I don't allow Paladins to be turned. I thought it was a stupid idea in 1E, and think its still a stupid idea today. Why can't good Clerics be "turned"? Why can't evil Clerics be turned? Why only Paladins? So, yeah, stupid idea.

As I just rolled up a paladin for my first C&C game in over ... 5 years ... I AGREE it is a very bad idea!

DMSamuel wrote:

Captain_K wrote:I don't like forcing too much on Paladins, but turn about is fair play as they say..

I see what you did there. Bravo.

I missed that on my read through!

Turn, turn, turn.... seems awfully druidic.

Speaking with Byrds comes in handy now and again.

This is starting to sound like a thread more about bards now