Troll Lord Games

What is the game effect of being defenseless? Foes get a +10 to hit, is there anything else?

I don't think there's any more effects, per the rules, but the CK can always add more to being defenseless, if he/she wishes. Just because it doesn't exist on some chart or table doesn't mean it can't (or must) happen!

You might, for instance, rule that in addition to it being much easier to hit a defenseless person, all attacks on that person do maximum damage.

Depending on the situation, I often rule it as an auto-hit and/or auto-kill.

Frost wrote:Depending on the situation, I often rule it as an auto-hit and/or auto-kill.

If that's how Frost doos it, that is how I will doos it.

~O

I kind of like the less lethality as written. It goes well with the idea that HP are luck, skill, divine favor, not physical damage.

zombiehands wrote:I kind of like the less lethality as written. It goes well with the idea that HP are luck, skill, divine favor, not physical damage.

Exactly. Otherwise it doesn't fit the idea/mechanic of H.P.

zombiehands wrote:I kind of like the less lethality as written. It goes well with the idea that HP are luck, skill, divine favor, not physical damage.

On the other hand, if someone is completely defenseless, a coup de grace would bypass the HP mechanic. Skill is out the door, the divine should not have let you get in that position, nor are you very lucky to be in your current position. After all, chopping off the head of a helpless opponent is a rather effective means of dispatching the poor sap...

Now, just what is meant by defenseless could be at question here... normal sleep, you need to move up to the person quietly and prepare your death blow in silence as well; magical sleep, well good night sweetheart; tied up but able to squirm freely I would allow a Cha save if the blow hits, failure means off with your head, success means max damage; back turned and completely unaware, make your tests to sneak up, get your bonus to attack, normal damage. In the last scenario the reason I don't give any damage adjustment is due to the fact that the backstab ability handles this for the shifty types, the bonus to hit is enough. The scenarios are endless and I would adjudicate each on the fly.

koralas wrote:

zombiehands wrote:I kind of like the less lethality as written. It goes well with the idea that HP are luck, skill, divine favor, not physical damage.

On the other hand, if someone is completely defenseless, a coup de grace would bypass the HP mechanic. Skill is out the door, the divine should not have let you get in that position, nor are you very lucky to be in your current position. After all, chopping off the head of a helpless opponent is a rather effective means of dispatching the poor sap...

Now, just what is meant by defenseless could be at question here... normal sleep, you need to move up to the person quietly and prepare your death blow in silence as well; magical sleep, well good night sweetheart; tied up but able to squirm freely I would allow a Cha save if the blow hits, failure means off with your head, success means max damage; back turned and completely unaware, make your tests to sneak up, get your bonus to attack, normal damage. In the last scenario the reason I don't give any damage adjustment is due to the fact that the backstab ability handles this for the shifty types, the bonus to hit is enough. The scenarios are endless and I would adjudicate each on the fly.

Kor

Rgr on your coup de grace & head chopping.

The worst game I was a player in had a very similar issue to that. The DM's favorite NPC antagonist attacked the party, and we got lucky, quickly killed off all his henchmen, and then fought him. It ended up with him knocked out and laying defenseless. I took off his helm, put my sword to his throat and pushed down ... "roll to hit" I ended up with a 2, which was a miss. “Roll again” a 4 ... that went on for a total of 5 attacks. All this time the DM was mocking and taunting my Paladin (like I said it was the worse party & game I was ever in). After that, I always hated how being defenseless was handled in most rules

That said, I like how you handled it for each scenario, especially the Cha check for the tied up character, I never thought of that (copying it into my bag of tricks for later use !!!)

Two other things I forgot to mention is common sense...

One of the larger giants (fire or storm) or a titan might be able to chop off a dragon's head, but unless a PC is up against a tiny dragon, or has some means to grow to incredible proportions, no way.

Some knowledge of the physiology of the creature is required, you need to know what parts to hit to cause instant death.

Yeah, I get that HP and such are abstractions, but as has been discussed, some times that really doesn't matter. I mean, if a creature/character is tied up, magically held, etc., it is kind of hard to think of abstraction-type reason not to rule that someone can slit his throat, take his head off, etc.

I never liked the coup de grace rules in 3e for that reason. I mean, saving throws are for those odd ball times when you have a chance of success (dodging a trap). I don't see that as the same as lying defenseless and having someone come up and end you.