Troll Lord Games

Hi all! I'm totally new to C&C and am excited to use it to run a megadungeon campaign. However, I'm coming from GMing background based in 3rd and 4th edition D&D, which have very clear-cut rules for how many of a certain monster to use and how much treasure to award. So I'm having some trouble with the Monsters & Treasure guidelines.

So I get that the number of monsters appearing in monster listings is generally split by numbers randomly encountered (first range) and numbers found in a lair (second range). I can see how this would be used, and useful, both for random encounters and as a guide for placing monsters in a dungeon, etc. I do have a couple of questions about it, though.

First, it seems like you could get some crazy results. I wanted to place some giant rats in a room near the start of my dungeon for my first-level players to fight. The # appearing is 1-100 so I rolled a d100 and got 77. That seems like an awful lot of rats for one room. Similarly for something like the violet fungus, another creature I want to put near the entrance of the dungeon. 1-20 is a pretty big range; I rolled an 11. For the fungus I figure that's okay because a smart party will just toast them from afar somehow, but it still seems pretty darn lethal. I just have no sense of how many 1 HD creatures would be an appropriate encounter for a first-level party. Am I just stuck on the idea of "balanced encounters" or am I missing something about these guidelines for use? How do I know if my randomly-determined numbers are crazy?

Second, let's go over treasure types. I get that each monster has a treasure type that you can use to roll random treasure that will be about appropriate for that creature. I dig this both because I like rolling on tables and because it helps me get a sense of how much treasure is appropriate in a new system. My question is this: do I roll once for each creature? That makes sense for big things like dragons or whatnot, but not as much for kobolds (if only because it would be a lot of work). That is, should each kobold roll for his own Type 1 treasure? If not, how big a group gets one treasure roll? One band of 4-24 (to continue the kobold example) or one lair of 40-400 or somewhere in between?

Here's a corollary question: I understand that wandering monsters don't generally carry treasure with them; rather they stash it back at the lair. If I were to roll up some kobolds on my wandering monster table, and roll treasure for them, should I add their treasure to the hoard back at kobold HQ? Or just ignore it for the most part? Or have them carry it (which I would do if it were just a few coins, or especially if it were a magic item that they would be using).

I think what I'm saying is I'm new to this style of treasure distribution and I could use some help grasping the basics. Any and all explanation and advice about this stuff is hugely appreciated. Thanks!

If I come across as brusque, please know that I don't intend to do so. Heck, I can hardly SPELL "brusque!"

What I think you're having is GBPS. That's Game Balance Preoccupation Syndrome, and it didn't start with D&D 3. It's a terrible malady which weakens, and sometimes destroys, a gamesmaster's confidence in him/herself and their creative abilities.

Sometimes, we think that we need Real Official Rules and/or Darned Impressive Tables to decide what treasure is with a monster, or which monsters should be added or applied to a specific area or incident. This can, with crazy dice rolls, lead to PC Glut (aka "Monty Haul") or PC Famine. And it frequently disrupts the suspension of disbelief. Without said suspension of disbelief, players cannot experience the verisimilitude of the fictional reality.

Sometimes, when the rules say one thing, the game - the adventure - or your better judgement - says something else. Sometimes, the dice are Just Plain Wrong.

Go with your gut! If you have been able to feel the vicarious thrills of a good action movie (The 1938 Adventures of Robin Hood, the Avengers, the first Chris Reeve Superman movie) then you have it in you to deliver that same type of vicarious thrill to your players.

Watch a young child tell a story sometime. Ignore any and all nonsense or contradictions which their story includes, and listen to the sheet excitement of the telling. That's what you're after.

The best rules tell how to give that sort of experience, and they stay out of the way after that. It's this ability to compartmentalize (i.e. - "Take it or leave it" of any one rule or another) that makes C&C pretty darned close to the ideal RPG for me.

What he said.

Also, figure if there are 77 rats, after the PCs kill a dozen or so, the other rats will flee. Rats arent' going to fight to the death, each and every one. they're not berzerkers, they're rats. (also, you and your players will get bored)

Further, the fleeing rats = fun!
Where do said fleeing rats go? (these sort of logical questions help you make dungeons that make sense... where do they come from is another good one... I digress)

If the PCs find a quote unquote safe place to camp out on level 1 or 2 for the night... maybe some giant rats start eating their stuff if the night watch isn't careful enough... you follow? further down, level 3 or 4, one PC is down to 1 or 2 hp and retreats to the back of the party to dig a healing potion out of their pack... guess what? OMG! 3 giant rats! EEK! didn't think they'd be scary did ya? BWA HA HA HA HA) a day later, "wait? what?! we're out of rations? WTH? those damn rats! argh!"

or I'm evil, I dunno.

Treasure... yeah, whatever (Grain of salt... I always winged it to control the "economy" of the game. Nothing is more annoying than PCs with 10's of thousands of GP, let me tell you.)
((I was always loose with treasure and XP))

Point is: use logic and planning over table results. They're a great jumping off point, but don't be afraid to trust your gut! You are adding stress and stress is not fun. This is a GAME. You must have fun!

Welcome to the Forum and to C&C! I'm sure I speak for everyone when i say welcome, and we hope you enjoy!

Back to the asking questions thing:
let's say I roll up a room with 18 orcs... but the room is 10 feet x 20 feet and has a bed and a desk and an iron maiden.... how could this possibly make sense?

(I suppose it could, if they were hiding there, waiting for the PC and the orcs already knew the PCs were coming, but otherwise, not so mcuh)

Thanks for the replies! I definitely agree that I'm kind of stuck in this "balanced encounter" mindset. So should I think about "balance" AT ALL? Like, should I be concerned with how tough it will be for my first-level party to fight a certain number of kobolds? Or should I just say the heck with it and go "Well, this is a kobold bedroom, so there would be two kobolds in here sleeping. This is a mess hall so there'd be maybe fifteen of them in here eating lunch." I just don't want to end up with a dungeon that's either super easy to chew through or totally impossible to survive.

yeah exactly: Challenging without being stupid deadly. don't overthink it either, it's a game, like I said, not homework. Basically, you shouldn't have (too many) no win scenarios b/c that's not fun, btu you shouldn't rescue the PCs from bad playing or bad decisions (example, ranger has 1 hp left (this is a 9th level character), he decides he and only he must be the first one to bust thru the door to face the Darknuns... so naturally, he's in the direct blast of their 70 hp cone of frost.... DUH you have one HP what are you thinking?)

During an encounter, you are allowed to fake it a little too.
some encounters CAN be too tough, the best option may be to flee. this is OK (maybe not in 3.5 from what I hear, LOL) ((I'm not edition bashing, just repeating what I've heard)).

Creating good balance on monster encounters is a bit of an art with C&C. It takes practice but is ultimately more rewarding in my opinion. When dice come into play, even the most balanced encounter can turn deadly or over-the-top easy. This is one reason I didn't like the CR system of 3E that much as it is only an approximation and can't count the infinite number of intangibles that can crop up during an encounter. C&C certainly doesn't make this process any easier, but it will make you a better CK/GM in the long run.

Enjoy and welcome to the Crusade!

~O

KesselZero wrote:Thanks for the replies! I definitely agree that I'm kind of stuck in this "balanced encounter" mindset. So should I think about "balance" AT ALL? Like, should I be concerned with how tough it will be for my first-level party to fight a certain number of kobolds? Or should I just say the heck with it and go "Well, this is a kobold bedroom, so there would be two kobolds in here sleeping. This is a mess hall so there'd be maybe fifteen of them in here eating lunch." I just don't want to end up with a dungeon that's either super easy to chew through or totally impossible to survive.

You should be concerned with FUN. Also, if the 1st level PC's hear about an ancient Red dragon and go hunt down its lair, how would you EVER make that a balanced encounter? Don't create insta kill encounters. But remember, retreat IS a tactical options for PC's. If they don't use it, they may die from time to time.. (see sig)

I have always used the "# appearing" as a guide, not a rule. Say a creature type shows "5-20" as the number appearing. They are a 1HD creature and the party is 6 people averaging 2nd level. I figure, to be challenging, I'd need about 10 of said creatures. 10 is inside the 5-20 range, so I'd write it up and move on. It's a guide, not a rule. Same with treasure.

Probably 30 years ago, when I DM'd my first game, I didn't feel this way. I probably did just as you did, rolled everything exactly like (I thought) the book said. Now, I just wing 75% of what I do.

AGNKim wrote:I have always used the "# appearing" as a guide, not a rule. Say a creature type shows "5-20" as the number appearing. They are a 1HD creature and the party is 6 people averaging 2nd level. I figure, to be challenging, I'd need about 10 of said creatures. 10 is inside the 5-20 range, so I'd write it up and move on. It's a guide, not a rule. Same with treasure.

Probably 30 years ago, when I DM'd my first game, I didn't feel this way. I probably did just as you did, rolled everything exactly like (I thought) the book said. Now, I just wing 75% of what I do.

Kim's exactly right. His example is one that, like most of the seasoned gamers, comes with experience. He "just knows." more-or-less, how to build that encounter against 6 2nd level characters. So 10 1HD creatures would probably equal 4-6 2HD creatures (depending on their special abilities and such). And so forth.

As experience is gained, so will your touch with encounter building. Arduin made a good point, and I use this method...with a twist...when building encounters. Sometimes, it's the monsters that retreat - to get help. Sometimes the "run" - if the encounter is too hard. Early on, if I built my encounters a little bit on the weaker side, I try to make it so that there's always a little help within earshot. Other times, if I found that the encounter was too difficult, I'd make some of the bad guys run (for whatever reason...the PCs don't have to know why and sometimes it adds a bit of excitement to the game). Of course, you can't always use these methods or encounters will seem a little to contrived. As Arduin said, sometimes the PCs are the ones that need to retreat. Over time, you'll learn the intricies of encounter building, and then it'll come naturally to you what to put in the characters way.

Yeah, not every monster will fight to the death. If they are down to 25 - 50% of their HP, they are likely to retreat if they can. They still "count" for XP, since they're defeated.

So here's what I'm hearing: just do whatever makes sense, be willing to adjust on the fly, and you'll get the hang of it.

Well, all right! My main concern has been that first session or two-- what if I kill all my players right out the gate? What if they steamroller everything and there's no challenge? I guess those are just what we call learning experiences. I'll probably err on the side of weaker encounters just to be sure, since I'd rather amp up the difficulty later than kill everybody on the first go round. But I'll just start stocking this bad boy based on what feels good and we'll see how she plays.

Thanks again for all the advice. I'd love to hear more specific advice about treasure: how much, where to put it, etc. etc. How should I go about using the random treasure tables and treasure types?

Thanks!

What if -- all the PCs get killed and you and they had fun?

What if -- all the PCs slide thru the adventure too easily and you and they had fun?

KesselZero wrote: Well, all right! My main concern has been that first session or two-- what if I kill all my players right out the gate?

Just give them less than you think can be handled. If it is too easy, bring in reinforcements. SLOWLY. Remember, given a specific PC, different players will handle them to better effect. More experienced players "get more mileage" out of a given character...

I'll be honest. I've never used # appearing monster rules random or otherwise. Well except maybe a long time ago.

The key piece of information that all of us don't have is who your players are and what makes it fun for them. Do they like hard challenges? Do they just want to fight? Do they like puzzles? etc. etc. etc. there are just too many variables for anyone one of us to give a concise answer to your dilemma though a lot of good advice has been given.

I was going to give the advice as to start lean then go into reinforcement mode tweaked for your group, but that has already been said and is good advice.

All I can say is base it on what your players like then later on it'll become easier to not only play your own favourite style but keep the fun on the premium as a whole all the while changing the theme and style organically.

I know not extensive advice, but coupled with all the other good suggestions fun should be had by all!

Good luck.

KesselZero wrote:So here's what I'm hearing: just do whatever makes sense, be willing to adjust on the fly, and you'll get the hang of it.

Well, all right! My main concern has been that first session or two-- what if I kill all my players right out the gate? What if they steamroller everything and there's no challenge? I guess those are just what we call learning experiences. I'll probably err on the side of weaker encounters just to be sure, since I'd rather amp up the difficulty later than kill everybody on the first go round. But I'll just start stocking this bad boy based on what feels good and we'll see how she plays.

Thanks again for all the advice. I'd love to hear more specific advice about treasure: how much, where to put it, etc. etc. How should I go about using the random treasure tables and treasure types?

Thanks!

Don't be afraid of the occasional encounter that is either too tough for the PCs or easily dispatched by the PCs through clever tactics. Both cases add a feeling of verisimilitude to the proceedings. Although most encounters should be only a healthy fraction of the PCs power level, to provide an interesting challenge, and allow the PCs to have multiple encounters (expending both HPs and spells along the way) before the darn wizard needs another nap

As for treasure tables and the like, I prefer to use all that as a guide/inspiration rather than a rule. Treasure is picked that is a) commensurate with the challenge b) makes sense the foe would have it and sometimes c) that I know won't break the game if the PCs get it

Similarly, I rarely roll on wandering monster tables. Instead, I roll to see if there is an encounter, and if there is one I choose the encounter from the list that I feel a) suits the circumstances and b) will be the most amusing

KesselZero wrote:Hi all! I'm totally new to C&C and am excited to use it to run a megadungeon campaign. However, I'm coming from GMing background based in 3rd and 4th edition D&D

One thing that you have not asked about, but I will say anyway, is you want to interpret the C&C rules fairly expansively. What is not expressly forbidden may be attempted, rather than what is not expressly allowed is forbidden. If your players want to simulate a feat type action, let them make a SIEGE check. If they want to try a combat maneuver, hit them with a SIEGE check. etc.

This will allow you and your players to really see the advantages of C&C for megadungeons. Namely, fast gameplay, and very open ended character options.

Most importantly, have fun with it

KesselZero wrote:So here's what I'm hearing: just do whatever makes sense, be willing to adjust on the fly, and you'll get the hang of it.

Sounds like good advice about life in general,

Also make sure your players know what they are getting into with the game. If they are coming from 3e+ they will likely be used to being uber badasses of stompy killy awesomeness and first level C&C characters aren't that.

It took me a dozen or so sessions to get that through to the group in my sandbox. I finally had to point out the 2 headlines I had put on the ObsidianPortal page for the game.

1 - Running is always an option.
2 - Heroes aren't born, they're cornered.

Once people realize they can attempt anything that seems like a good half baked plan, you ought to see some pretty insane and amazing stuff from your players. Hopefully.

#2 is Priceless!

Save, you make a good point: Players of PF or Exalted are NOT going to dig the Character Funnel in DCC unless they're looking for a change or are forewarned it's a different kind of game. Best to be up front about the kind of game you want to run.

That said, if these are the only people available to play with, you may need to adapt and all of you together can set the tone. This sort of cooperation crates 'buy in' from the players so they care about the campaign as much as their characters and in a good campaign, good worthy character deaths, even of beloved characters are great!
(great story-telling, I mean, I'm not a bloodthirsty DM)