firing missiles into melee

[Barrataria]

I don't see anything in the book... what do you all do? I usually roll d6 for misses to figure out where the missile goes, but I'd be curiious if there's a better non-d20 idea.

BB

[Rigon]

I'd just go with a -4 to hit, like we did in 2e. If the attack fails, then I'd roll the d6.

R-
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The Book of the Mind

[gideon_thorne]

If someone fires into melee and their attack roll hits, they hit their target. If they miss the arrow misses.

It really doesn't need to be more complex than that.
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Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

gideon_thorne wrote:
If someone fires into melee and their attack roll hits, they hit their target. If they miss the arrow misses.

It really doesn't need to be more complex than that.

Yes, but where or where does it go? I like the 2e way, but I could've swore that there was something in the PHB about firing into a melee. Maybe I'm starting to experience "edition meld."

[JRR]

I like to make it somewhat realistic. Firing into melee is hard. Try throwing a rock at two friends scuffling and see which one you hit. It's not that you miss your target, your target has moved and another is in the line of fire.

For each target there is a percentage each will be hit. I.E, 2 orcs and one pc, each has a 33% chance to be hit. Add a giant (size large) to the mix, the giant has a 2 in 5 chance to be hit and the pcs and the orc a one in 5. You might also say that a nat 20 always hits the intended target. This is similar to the way it was done in 1e iirc.
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You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

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[gideon_thorne]

Orpheus wrote:
Yes, but where or where does it go? I like the 2e way, but I could've swore that there was something in the PHB about firing into a melee. Maybe I'm starting to experience "edition meld."

It goes where one didn't intend it to go.
Personally, I always use critical and fumble charts cobbled together from varous groups over the years.

The, brief, bit on ranged combat in the PHB, page 117, pretty well sums up the C&C base method.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Barrataria]

To remind myself, I looked in the 1E DMG. I'm sure someone will protest my characterization, but it's a very convoluted paragraph telling the DM to compare the relative size and number of combatants to assign percentage chances to missile fire.

Nothing in B/X. My RC is inaccessible at the moment.

So, I guess the most straightforward thing is to resolve the combat then randomly determine where a miss goes. Good old C&C
BB

[Dristram]

Orpheus wrote:
Yes, but where or where does it go? I like the 2e way, but I could've swore that there was something in the PHB about firing into a melee. Maybe I'm starting to experience "edition meld."

Yep, there is. See the 4th paragraph of Ranged Combat on page 117 of the 2nd printing PHB. It begins with:

Quote:
Ranged weapons that miss their target continue on their path and can potentially hit another taget withing close range....

And it continues with details.

[Dristram]

JRR wrote:
For each target there is a percentage each will be hit. I.E, 2 orcs and one pc, each has a 33% chance to be hit. Add a giant (size large) to the mix, the giant has a 2 in 5 chance to be hit and the pcs and the orc a one in 5. You might also say that a nat 20 always hits the intended target. This is similar to the way it was done in 1e iirc.

Totally brings back memories!

[Ghul]

This is what I use:

Missile Combat (Dungeon Masters Guide 1e, Gygax, 1979)

If the to hit die roll indicates a miss, roll 1d6 and 1d8. The d6 indicates the distance in feet the missile was off target. The d8 indicates the direction in which the distance in feet of the miss is measured:

1 = long right 2 = right 3 = short right 4 = short before

5 = short left 6 = left 7 = long left 8 = long (over)

[serleran]

By the book, a missile continues in a straight line until it reaches its maximum travel distance. There is no penalty for firing into melee, and a miss is a miss. However, because of the "straight line" thing, some other target may be struck, but only if directly in the line of fire. This si easy if one uses miniatures, but just as easy if one does not (a CK can just decide if something was "in the way.") Therefore, make one attack roll, and compare it to the AC of any potential target within range. If the roll hits the first, it was a hit as expected... if it misses, it continues and may hit the other, which, the roll already determined. If the roll is so low as to not hit anything, it is simply a total miss.

[Barrataria]

Thanks for the interpretation Serl, that's probably what was intended (assuming it wasn't actually aired on our now-dead PHB development board).

I don't like that though because to me if it misses, how do you know where the straight line is going? Why is it a straight line for a miss? Maybe it would make sense to say: miss by 4 or less, endangers any character immediately adjacent to target, miss by 5 or more, endangers anyone in the area.

Or something like that, but I think I'll stick with no penalty/d6 to determine miss direction. (short/short left/long left/long/long right/short right).

PS to Ghul: the rule you cited is for "grenade-like missiles" like giant boulders or oil flasks. Just to be clear.

BB

[phadeout]

I like the way C&C does Ranged Misses with Projectiles. Though I'd still used the Grenade rules for Giant Boulders and the like. C&C makes it nice and simple, no referencing and extra rolling when you don't really need it. I also like the fact that Crossbows continue on to hit targets at a longer range than a Bow, giving them that extra little boost, especially in huge battles with rows of charging troops.

[Omote]

gideon_thorne wrote:
If someone fires into melee and their attack roll hits, they hit their target. If they miss the arrow misses.

I do it this way as well, except that I add if there attack roll was a natural 1, then the arrow shot hits an ally or other, unintended target in the melee.

............................................Omote

FPQ
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[Treebore]

If your not using mini's or in some way clearly establishing who is where, the only way I think is fair to handle this is give the target a bonus to AC due to cover (to account for being in melee with targets you don't want to hit) and if they miss give those in the line of fire a chance to be hit (if mini's or some method of establishing locations is being used). Otherwise a missed roll is a missed roll.

I usually just look at the to hit roll, if it wasn't good enough to hit any of the AC's in the line of fire it flew over their heads.

IF it was good enough to hit one of the AC's that one was hit. If two or more qualifies give them an equal chance to be hit.

Thats how I do it, anyhow. Since we use methods to concretely establish who is where.

[Orpheus]

Treebore wrote:
I usually just look at the to hit roll, if it wasn't good enough to hit any of the AC's in the line of fire it flew over their heads.

IF it was good enough to hit one of the AC's that one was hit. If two or more qualifies give them an equal chance to be hit.

Thats how I do it, anyhow. Since we use methods to concretely establish who is where.

I like that method. Note taken. 8)

[Nifelhein]

Barrataria wrote:
(...)

I don't like that though because to me if it misses, how do you know where the straight line is going? Why is it a straight line for a miss? Maybe it would make sense to say: miss by 4 or less, endangers any character immediately adjacent to target, miss by 5 or more, endangers anyone in the area.

You do not make a melee ighter check to see if he hit an adjacent creature to his trarget when he misses his own do you? then do not be stingy on the archer merely because he chose to wield or be god at a different weapon. That is what i think, at least.

Letting the missile go in the intended direction is just that, possibly hitting someone behind or some point away from the target is perfectly fine and simple enough too.

Oevrall I lvoe archers but systems usually make them too troublesome or uninteresting, adding more penalties is just the kind of thign that turns me off from one of the kinds of characetrs i like the most...[/quote]
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

[phadeout]

Nifelhein wrote:
You do not make a melee fighter check to see if he hit an adjacent creature to his target when he misses his own do you? then do not be stingy on the archer merely because he chose to wield or be good at a different weapon. That is what i think, at least.

Letting the missile go in the intended direction is just that, possibly hitting someone behind or some point away from the target is perfectly fine and simple enough too.

Overall I love archers but systems usually make them too troublesome or uninteresting, adding more penalties is just the kind of thing that turns me off from one of the kinds of characters i like the most...

Well said Nif (minus the bad spelling, I fixed some, you should get Firefox 2.0, it underlines all your spelling mistakes like Word lol). Firing into melee is not much different than firing into any other group... Melee "can" be more chaotic, but combat is abstract anyways. I may assign a penalty to hit and a chance to hit a friendly, IF there is some grappling going on.

[Barrataria]

Nifelhein wrote:
You do not make a melee ighter check to see if he hit an adjacent creature to his trarget when he misses his own do you? then do not be stingy on the archer merely because he chose to wield or be god at a different weapon. That is what i think, at least.

[/quote]

No, you don't make wayward melee attacks check to see where they miss because the weapon is attached to the character- it can't go anywhere. Unless you're talking about a harpoon, a missile is free to fly for 100' and if it hits nothing it keeps going.

As for "penalizing" archers, I think standing back and peppering monsters with arrows is attractive enough as it is particularly at low levels where other than humanoids not very many monsters can do anything except melee.

BB

[Treebore]

Barrataria wrote:

SHHHHHHHHHHhhhh!! I don't want every player figuring out how much of an advantage that is!

No, you don't make wayward melee attacks check to see where they miss because the weapon is attached to the character- it can't go anywhere. Unless you're talking about a harpoon, a missile is free to fly for 100' and if it hits nothing it keeps going.

As for "penalizing" archers, I think standing back and peppering monsters with arrows is attractive enough as it is particularly at low levels where other than humanoids not very many monsters can do anything except melee.

BB[/quote]

[Nifelhein]

phadeout wrote:
Well said Nif (minus the bad spelling, I fixed some, you should get Firefox 2.0, it underlines all your spelling mistakes like Word lol). Firing into melee is not much different than firing into any other group... Melee "can" be more chaotic, but combat is abstract anyways. I may assign a penalty to hit and a chance to hit a friendly, IF there is some grappling going on.

I have Firefox 2 already, but I am a native portuguese speaker so I would have to install 2 dictionaries (if that would work at all) besides, most of my spelling mistakes are the result of my way of typing, not my skills in the language... so it would not change much; i don't usually review the writing anyway.

Barrataria wrote:
No, you don't make wayward melee attacks check to see where they miss because the weapon is attached to the character- it can't go anywhere. Unless you're talking about a harpoon, a missile is free to fly for 100' and if it hits nothing it keeps going.

As for "penalizing" archers, I think standing back and peppering monsters with arrows is attractive enough as it is particularly at low levels where other than humanoids not very many monsters can do anything except melee.

BB

Well, my point is that if you don't let the melee attacker egt a wrong direction aim, that is, he aims toward a different square, doing so with the archer is wrong, the Players book of C&C already assumes there is no aim mistake in the direction when it allows a missed arrow to hit anything in the same line of the target, and well, i am in favor of that.

Making the archer miss the actual line to his target is what i was referring too, not making arrows hit somewhere else, besides, archers have a rather strong issue with mobility and being on his own away from the scene could also lead to ambushes by someone or something else...
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

[Dristram]

I also assume the archer's aim is good, and so a miss simply means as the book says, it travels in a straight path past the intended target. BUT, I utilize the "touch ac" rule, so only if the player rolled less than the opponents touch ac (10+dex) then the arrow continues in a straight line. Otherwise, it a rolled miss hits the target but at a bad angle and bounces off, or the armor stopped it, and does not continue.

[phadeout]

Nifelhein wrote:
I have Firefox 2 already, but I am a native portuguese speaker so I would have to install 2 dictionaries (if that would work at all) besides, most of my spelling mistakes are the result of my way of typing, not my skills in the language... so it would not change much; i don't usually review the writing anyway.
As for "penalizing" archers, I think standing back and peppering monsters with arrows is attractive enough as it is particularly at low levels where other than humanoids not very many monsters can do anything except melee.

Making the archer miss the actual line to his target is what i was referring too, not making arrows hit somewhere else, besides, archers have a rather strong issue with mobility and being on his own away from the scene could also lead to ambushes by someone or something else...

Nif, yeah, I know it was due to your typing and not your language, I've known ye for a while now
Peppering monsters from a distance... shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a little thing called Cover!

And I agree with Nif again, it makes sense as per the C&C PHB way, rather than the Grenade way of hitting adjacent "squares". A natural 1 would be a different case in my game, then you could say the projectile weapon went way off target...

[Treebore]

I could see why people would want to see what direction an our can be deflected towards, but I don't think it is really worth the trouble. That is because the arrows I have seen glance off of objects lost a LOT of their power. Except when it was only a small change of direction, say less than 10 degrees.

So I only worry about the "line of fire" on misses, and then only if it is a tough fight and the damage may make the difference between winning and losing. Otherwise it is too insignificant for me to worry about.

[Dristram]

phadeout wrote:
A natural 1 would be a different case in my game, then you could say the projectile weapon went way off target...

Ah yes, a nat. 1 is an exception to the straight past rule in my game as well.

[JRR]

Nifelhein wrote:
Making the archer miss the actual line to his target is what i was referring too, not making arrows hit somewhere else,

As I said upthread, It's not that you miss your target, your target has moved and another is in the line of fire.
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

[Nifelhein]

JRR wrote:
As I said upthread, It's not that you miss your target, your target has moved and another is in the line of fire.

That is a good way of dealing with things, though it kinda requires you not to use minis, which is a thing D&D 3.X has made my group kinda be attached to...
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

[Treebore]

Nif,

I don't think he necessarily means move as in a 5 foot step or more. A character can move around plenty in their 5 foot square to avoid an arrow. Something as simple as kneeling down could do it.

I think that is the kind of movement he is talking about. So the arrow misses and continues on along its trajectory, possibly hitting anyone else in its path.

That is the kind of stuff I assume is going on when I adjudicate a missed arrow shot.

So that is why I determine if the "to hit" roll was even good enough to hit the AC of any potential target in the flight path of the arrow. If it isn't it obviously flew over their heads or perfectly between everyone.

The only time I really determine a random/crazy flight path is on a fumble.

[Nifelhein]

Well, that would work well enough too, in fact is perfectly fine as well, maybe even simpler than having to see if it hits the shield or whatever.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.