Troll Lord Games

Hello,

I am new around here. I was curious if there are any point based system to buy your attribute scores? I am not very found of random character generation. It takes the fun out of imagining your character... only to make rolls that don't live up to that image (and also point based is more fair across the board).

Thanks! \m/

Nothing official, though I am sure someone has developed their own system for it. The easiest way is to simply provide something like 63 points; each +1 to an attribute (all start at 0) costs 1. That produces generic and average PCs, so you might up it to something like 70 - 72, or come up with some other method.

Cooper wrote:Hello,

I am new around here. I was curious if there are any point based system to buy your attribute scores? I am not very found of random character generation. It takes the fun out of imagining your character... only to make rolls that don't live up to that image (and also point based is more fair across the board).

Thanks! \m/

From the CKG:

Method Five: This method places the onus of attribute generation
almost entirely upon the player. The player receives 66 points to divide
among the character’s attributes as desired.

Cooper wrote:Hello,

I am new around here. I was curious if there are any point based system to buy your attribute scores? I am not very found of random character generation. It takes the fun out of imagining your character... only to make rolls that don't live up to that image (and also point based is more fair across the board).

Thanks! \m/

Welcome to the Crusade, Cooper!

The options outline above, by my esteemed colleagues, work well. If you come from a 3.x or 4e background, you could go with their point-buy system. This one is from 3.5 D&D:

Ability Score - Point Cost
9 - 1
10 - 2
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 6
15 - 8
16 - 10
17 - 13
18 - 16

For a C&C feel, I wouldn't go over a a 15 or 22 point buy, though. Alternatively, I would also suggest Pathfinder's system, found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability- ... ity-scores Again, I'd stick with the lower end point buys, at least in my opinion.

Cool! thanks for the suggestions. I'll run these by my Keeper. I'm looking forward to playing a more in depth game (I only got to play it for about an hour at a convention).

Cheers!

and yes, I am coming in this from Pathfinder & D&D 4th edition, which I do like both of them (even tho I have issues with both games for different reasons). I have a musician friend that loves C&C and after a gaming convention (where I got to play the game for almost two hours), I wanted to try it out again.

I am frustrated with D&D 4th Ed's un-proportionly long ass combat resolution and the only game of 4th ed we can get into is the encounters game, which I love the DM, but when there are four or more players things drag when we get to combat...

And there are too many players around here for Pathfinder (in the OKC area) and not enough GMs. Tho, there was nothing stoping Paizo from making their game easier. I love them to death, but my biggest complaint about that game is they feel the solution to most problems is more numbers and rules.

So, I thought what the hell, let's try something new. And, I am really excited by how simple these rules are so far. And as far as I can tell, if I wanted to bring in something from another game (like skill challenges), it looks like it won't break the game. It seems old school enough for the classic people, but modern enough for modernist like me

Looking forward to discussing more on this forum (and playing)!

Arduin wrote:

Cooper wrote:Hello,

I am new around here. I was curious if there are any point based system to buy your attribute scores? I am not very found of random character generation. It takes the fun out of imagining your character... only to make rolls that don't live up to that image (and also point based is more fair across the board).

Thanks! \m/

From the CKG:

Method Five: This method places the onus of attribute generation
almost entirely upon the player. The player receives 66 points to divide
among the character’s attributes as desired.

Ok I'm bad at math ( no, really I am) so help me out here. In this case, if you go even, every att gets 13's. SO if I'm using Beauty attribute I would add 79 points to distribute. Right?

every attribute would be 11. 11 x 6 = 66. I also had to do a lot of math too in order to find the right mix.... the scores are lower than I am used to, but oh well.

nightstorm wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Cooper wrote:Hello,

I am new around here. I was curious if there are any point based system to buy your attribute scores? I am not very found of random character generation. It takes the fun out of imagining your character... only to make rolls that don't live up to that image (and also point based is more fair across the board).

Thanks! \m/

From the CKG:

Method Five: This method places the onus of attribute generation
almost entirely upon the player. The player receives 66 points to divide
among the character’s attributes as desired.

Ok I'm bad at math ( no, really I am) so help me out here. In this case, if you go even, every att gets 13's. SO if I'm using Beauty attribute I would add 79 points to distribute. Right?

66 divided by 6 attributes = 11. 11 is the average roll of 3D6. If you add an attribute (Beauty) you add 11 to 66 = 77 total points.

If you want to model 4D6 drop lowest, the average roll is ~12.5. So 12.5 x 6 attributes = 75

If you add Beauty, make it ~87 points.

75 points is a good medium! I like that one!

Cooper wrote:and yes, I am coming in this from Pathfinder & D&D 4th edition, which I do like both of them (even tho I have issues with both games for different reasons). I have a musician friend that loves C&C and after a gaming convention (where I got to play the game for almost two hours), I wanted to try it out again.

I am frustrated with D&D 4th Ed's un-proportionly long ass combat resolution and the only game of 4th ed we can get into is the encounters game, which I love the DM, but when there are four or more players things drag when we get to combat...

And there are too many players around here for Pathfinder (in the OKC area) and not enough GMs. Tho, there was nothing stoping Paizo from making their game easier. I love them to death, but my biggest complaint about that game is they feel the solution to most problems is more numbers and rules.

So, I thought what the hell, let's try something new. And, I am really excited by how simple these rules are so far. And as far as I can tell, if I wanted to bring in something from another game (like skill challenges), it looks like it won't break the game. It seems old school enough for the classic people, but modern enough for modernist like me

Looking forward to discussing more on this forum (and playing)!

You want short intense combat instead of long drawn out tactical slogs? You want a rules light game that is more about playing and less about rules memorization? I hate to break it to you but you're no modernist. You're old school.

Oh, and welcome to the Crusade. I'd be so bold as to say you've found the right system. (And I can say this because I've DM'd multiple 4E groups for years, so I'm no hater).

With point buys, you need to know the average stat the characters should have. If the majority of PCs should have at least three scores yielding a +1 bonus, then you need to factor the cost on that. I am of the personal opinion that, when my parents rolled my character sheet, they didn't get to assign me values... so I go with the organic method every time. Perhaps in 20-40 years when genetic engineering of children is the norm, I'd say something else.

serleran wrote:With point buys, you need to know the average stat the characters should have. If the majority of PCs should have at least three scores yielding a +1 bonus, then you need to factor the cost on that. I am of the personal opinion that, when my parents rolled my character sheet, they didn't get to assign me values... so I go with the organic method every time. Perhaps in 20-40 years when genetic engineering of children is the norm, I'd say something else.

Haha! The organic (or what I call "old school" method of ability generation) might work for you, but not for me (and that is perfectly fine). After all, in the Player's book it invites to you imagine what kind of character you want to play and there is nothing more to kill that mood than bad die rolls! No, don't usually leave much to chance during character generation, but then again, I also don't use very many random charts when I run a game.... but make exceptions for critical hit charts (or fumble charts if they have them)... take 40K rpg Dark Heresy! MOL ("mmmhahahahaha out loud")

BUT, your "at least three +1 average" is good too. My Keeper already mentioned he was going to use a 80 or 90 point method, but if and when I am ready to run this game, I'll keep these methods in mind. I found out that the Keeper's Guide has more variations on these rules (like what was posted earlier), so I might have to check that out.

Cooper wrote:

serleran wrote:With point buys, you need to know the average stat the characters should have. If the majority of PCs should have at least three scores yielding a +1 bonus, then you need to factor the cost on that. I am of the personal opinion that, when my parents rolled my character sheet, they didn't get to assign me values... so I go with the organic method every time. Perhaps in 20-40 years when genetic engineering of children is the norm, I'd say something else.

Haha! The organic (or what I call "old school" method of ability generation) might work for you, but not for me (and that is perfectly fine). After all, in the Player's book it invites to you imagine what kind of character you want to play and there is nothing more to kill that mood than bad die rolls! No, don't usually leave much to chance during character generation, but then again, I also don't use very many random charts when I run a game.... but make exceptions for critical hit charts (or fumble charts if they have them)... take 40K rpg Dark Heresy! MOL ("mmmhahahahaha out loud")

BUT, your "at least three +1 average" is good too. My Keeper already mentioned he was going to use a 80 or 90 point method, but if and when I am ready to run this game, I'll keep these methods in mind. I found out that the Keeper's Guide has more variations on these rules (like what was posted earlier), so I might have to check that out.

And the nice part about C&C is that it's pretty hard to break. If your CK is ok with it, you can easily run a game using the standard 4E arrays. For example, 16,14,13,12,11,10 or 16,14,14,11,10,10.

I actually liked that idea a lot about those essentials books. Pathfinder also did that with the beginner's PF Society pack.

I wonder if my keeper is reading this forum discussion? Know he visits it.

serleran wrote:With point buys, you need to know the average stat the characters should have.

Per the core rules in the PHB that would be 11. Any other questions?

Yes.

Where was my question?

Not all games assume PHB "defaults." Some want "heroic" or "superheroic" character baselines, with a score of 13-14 as minimum. Some might require at least one attribute that receives a penalty.

My statement was that the point value used can, and should, vary by campaign depending on the needs of that campaign. Perhaps the CKG mentions this... don't care, but it should if it does not.

I've done point buy before, and it works ok. I've grown to dislike it, however, because all the characters start to look the same.

My old point buy system started everyone at an 8 ("0" points across the board), and gave them 24 points to use as listed below. This was enough to create a 'standard array' from 3.5 No attribute may be raised above 18 or lowered below 3, prior to racial adjustments. Negative point costs are added to the character’s attribute point pool.

Attribute Score..................................Total Point Cost
3.......................................................-5
4.......................................................-4
5.......................................................-3
6.......................................................-2
7.......................................................-1
8.......................................................0
9.......................................................1
10.....................................................2
11.....................................................3
12.....................................................4
13.....................................................5
14.....................................................6
15.....................................................7
16 ....................................................9
17....................................................11
18....................................................14

*steeples fingers together while grinning like..well...a CK*

OH I'm reading, I'm reading and planning and plotting...

*Laughter*

Kephrin wrote:*steeples fingers together while grinning like..well...a CK*

OH I'm reading, I'm reading and planning and plotting...

*Laughter*

Uh oh. I think my keeper found me on this forum. I'll have to only say nice things now

Actually our keeper was very generous with the attribute points: 85! More than I would give my players, that's for sure. Must be a trap!

85 yields a rough average of 14 on all stats, which is not bad. A little high, but I know a lot of Castle Keepers who prefer to see a +1 or a -- to a penalty, especially with the perception of how difficult non-Prime rolls are to make. If it ends up being too much, characters can always be killed and new ones made... heh.

(sshhhh don't give him any ideas)

But ideas are what makes the game work!

First, thanks for answering. This has brought up an entirely different point in the game when I asked about Beauty being included.
We know what the Beauty attribute does for a character when meeting npc's, but should it apply for other pc's? I know full well how I feel about the subject, I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

If you use Beauty, it should affect NPCs only. PCs are always free to play their character as they see fit, unless compelled through some magical means. So, a high beauty might "influence" how another PC sees yours, it should not force them to act a certain way.

nightstorm wrote:We know what the Beauty attribute does for a character when meeting npc's, but should it apply for other pc's? I know full well how I feel about the subject, I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

PC's are run by the players. Just as Charisma doesn't effect PC interaction, neither does Beauty.

Arduin wrote:

nightstorm wrote:We know what the Beauty attribute does for a character when meeting npc's, but should it apply for other pc's? I know full well how I feel about the subject, I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

PC's are run by the players. Just as Charisma doesn't effect PC interaction, neither does Beauty.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's just my opinion. It's a roleplaying thing to me. If I was an adventurer and Scarlett Johansson, er, I mean Aleena was the party cleric I'd like to think I'd be a little more influenced by her wishes and suggestions than I would anyone else in the party. YMMV.

Lord Dynel wrote:

Arduin wrote:

nightstorm wrote:We know what the Beauty attribute does for a character when meeting npc's, but should it apply for other pc's? I know full well how I feel about the subject, I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

PC's are run by the players. Just as Charisma doesn't effect PC interaction, neither does Beauty.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's just my opinion. It's a roleplaying thing to me. If I was an adventurer and Scarlett Johansson, er, I mean Aleena was the party cleric I'd like to think I'd be a little more influenced by her wishes and suggestions than I would anyone else in the party. YMMV.

What I meant was that a GM shouldn't force rolls for PC to PC interaction (unless magic is involved). Not that I don't suggest accurate RPing on the part of players. I wasn't totally clear in my response.

Point buys are overly complicated. I just offer up one of two arrays, high powered: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8. Then "Medium powered": 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, and 11. Both arranged as desired. Then add racial modifiers, if any. One gives +6 in modifiers, the other +5, before racial mods. The first has 3 of the 6 points in just one attribute, so 5 out of 6 in just two attributes, with one more points in one more attributes. The other gives a modifier in 4 of the 6 attributes, with only 2 points in 1, and 3 points in 3 other attributes. So far one or the other has made my players happy.