Troll Lord Games

Hi all,

Just getting started with C&C following my purchase of C&C Complete, and so far, I really like what I read, so easy on the DM and the players rules-wise.

However, I do have a few quick questions for more experienced CKs.

-Racial attribute modifiers: are they applied to the attribute score or to the global modifier of the attribute?

-Non-magical first aid: how do you manage non-magical first aid in your games, bandages and stuff. I am tempted to have my players roll a Wisdom check to stop HP loss, a bit like the First Aid spell works, but maybe you have better ideas?

I might have more later, but thanks for your help!

Greyblade wrote:Hi all,

Just getting started with C&C following my purchase of C&C Complete, and so far, I really like what I read, so easy on the DM and the players rules-wise.

However, I do have a few quick questions for more experienced CKs.

-Racial attribute modifiers: are they applied to the attribute score or to the global modifier of the attribute?

Racial attribute modifiers (and any "attribute modifier" such as that gained from magic items) always modifies the actual attribute, not the bonus. So a +1 STR modifier will improve a 15 Strength to 16, for example.

Greyblade wrote:-Non-magical first aid: how do you manage non-magical first aid in your games, bandages and stuff. I am tempted to have my players roll a Wisdom check to stop HP loss, a bit like the First Aid spell works, but maybe you have better ideas?

This is explained on pg. 134 of the Player's Handbook. From -7 the character will lose 1 hp per round until -10 (so, dead in 3 rounds). The rules only say that aid must be administerd, which takes a full round. In other words, another character taking a round to help a fallen comrade can stabalize them by simply saying so. The CKG has some expanded rules (optional) on dealing with negative hit points, but as written, no check is required.

There's a temptation if you're coming from 3e/4e to have characters make checks for many of their actions. Resist that temptation. In many cases, try having them just explain (in detail) what they're doing, in lieu of a roll.

Having said all of this, you can ask, "If anybody can provide first aid, why is there a first aid spell?" That would be an excellent question. You can require that your charactes offering aid have bandages and a "medical kit" and the first aid spell could be used in place of that. You could require that *only* a first aid spell can be used to administer first aid to a dying character. You can houserule any number of options, including those from the CKG, such as requiring a character administering aid to have a "physicker" secondary skill (pg. 264). Or, of course, you can house rule a rolled check to successfully administer first aid (the previously mentioned "physicker" secondary skill is Intelligence based, so would require an INT check to use successfully).

Greyblade wrote:I might have more later, but thanks for your help!

OK, thanks for your help, much appreciated

Greyblade wrote:Hi all

Welcome to the Crusade, Greyblade!

redwullf wrote:

Greyblade wrote:-Non-magical first aid: how do you manage non-magical first aid in your games, bandages and stuff. I am tempted to have my players roll a Wisdom check to stop HP loss, a bit like the First Aid spell works, but maybe you have better ideas?

This is explained on pg. 134 of the Player's Handbook. From -7 the character will lose 1 hp per round until -10 (so, dead in 3 rounds). The rules only say that aid must be administerd, which takes a full round. In other words, another character taking a round to help a fallen comrade can stabalize them by simply saying so. The CKG has some expanded rules (optional) on dealing with negative hit points, but as written, no check is required.

There's a temptation if you're coming from 3e/4e to have characters make checks for many of their actions. Resist that temptation. In many cases, try having them just explain (in detail) what they're doing, in lieu of a roll.

Having said all of this, you can ask, "If anybody can provide first aid, why is there a first aid spell?" That would be an excellent question. You can require that your charactes offering aid have bandages and a "medical kit" and the first aid spell could be used in place of that. You could require that *only* a first aid spell can be used to administer first aid to a dying character. You can houserule any number of options, including those from the CKG, such as requiring a character administering aid to have a "physicker" secondary skill (pg. 264). Or, of course, you can house rule a rolled check to successfully administer first aid (the previously mentioned "physicker" secondary skill is Intelligence based, so would require an INT check to use successfully).

red handled the first question, so I won't add my two cents to that one, but I do want to comment on this.

I agree with red's interpretation of the rule - when first aid is administered, which requires a full round, hit point loss is halted and the after 24 hours of bed rest, the character begins to recover 1 hit point/day. Then the character is conscious at 0 hit points, etc, etc. It is interesting to note that hit point loss only occurs from -7 to -10 - at which point the character is dead. From -1 to -6, the character doesn't lose any hit points per round.

The first aid spell magically administers aid, with a touch from the cleric or druid (or illusionist ). This replaces the need for the round of action a PC will have to spend administering aid. Now, red suggested a few suggestions, and of those, I really like his first one - bandages. For the low price of 1 sp (see page 45 of the PHB), you can buy two bandages that can be used to administer aid to a wounded companion. Without these, I would rule that you cannot give aid to a dying person. No need for optional rules, no need for attribute or SIEGE checks - if a PC has the bandages they can come over to heal a dying character. If they don't, let's hope the cleric or druid has the first aid spell memorized!

Greyblade wrote:The first aid spell magically administers aid, with a touch from the cleric or druid (or illusionist ).

Don't have the 4th printing with me (I usually use my yellow 3rd edition books), but With the Illusionist though, doesn't the PC have to fail there save?

I like what you're saying here Greyblade with the bandages. If they have 'em, First Aid can happen, if not they're out of luck. I'd be upfront with the PC so they know this is how the CK is going to handle it, so they have the opportunity to purchase some. I might also be inclined to allow the use of a torn piece of clothing or something, but using that might result in a save vs. disease/infection.

My treatment of bandaging / binding wounds -- the character does not die from bleeding out, which is a loss of 1 HP per two rounds (I am not a fan of the C&C default rules for this) and this can be done by anyone who has a bandage; being in negative HP means you are unconscious and defenseless. Magical healing, even by the lowly first aid spell brings the character back to 0 HP which means they are awake and at least capable of self-defense (no auto-kill) unless there are no other characters around; it also means they can move around on their own, although at 33% normal speed. More powerful magical healing brings the character to 0, and then restores whatever was rolled. At 1 HP or more, the character functions perfectly normally.

TheMetal1 wrote:

Greyblade wrote:The first aid spell magically administers aid, with a touch from the cleric or druid (or illusionist ).

Don't have the 4th printing with me (I usually use my yellow 3rd edition books), but With the Illusionist though, doesn't the PC have to fail there save?

I like what you're saying here Greyblade with the bandages. If they have 'em, First Aid can happen, if not they're out of luck. I'd be upfront with the PC so they know this is how the CK is going to handle it, so they have the opportunity to purchase some. I might also be inclined to allow the use of a torn piece of clothing or something, but using that might result in a save vs. disease/infection.

I'll reply to your post, Metal, since you quoted me (and not Greyblade).

Yes, the recipient of the first aid spell has to fail an intelligence throw for the spell to work on them. While I understand the "perception is reality" mindset the Trolls went with illusionist healing, I'm not on board with that and do not allow illusionists in my game any kind of healing spells.

But yeah, I would also make sure they know the rules about first aid and bandages and be armed with that knowledge at character creation.

TheMetal1 wrote: Don't have the 4th printing with me (I usually use my yellow 3rd edition books), but With the Illusionist though, doesn't the PC have to fail there save?

The CKG clarified this. It says that it makes more sense for the Illusionist to roll vs. HD of recipient to be able to heal.

Lord Dynel wrote:

Greyblade wrote:Hi all

Welcome to the Crusade, Greyblade!

redwullf wrote:

Greyblade wrote:-Non-magical first aid: how do you manage non-magical first aid in your games, bandages and stuff. I am tempted to have my players roll a Wisdom check to stop HP loss, a bit like the First Aid spell works, but maybe you have better ideas?

This is explained on pg. 134 of the Player's Handbook. From -7 the character will lose 1 hp per round until -10 (so, dead in 3 rounds). The rules only say that aid must be administerd, which takes a full round. In other words, another character taking a round to help a fallen comrade can stabalize them by simply saying so. The CKG has some expanded rules (optional) on dealing with negative hit points, but as written, no check is required.

The first aid spell magically administers aid, with a touch from the cleric or druid (or illusionist ). This replaces the need for the round of action a PC will have to spend administering aid.

But isn't this the same as a practical matter? The spell has a CT of 1 if I recall and the non magical action requires a full round. Isn't this functionally the same? Basically, the cleric/druid will use their turn to cast, or the non-cleric/druid will use their full turn to administer aid? Can either class move AND administer aid?

mbeacom wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:

Greyblade wrote:Hi all

Welcome to the Crusade, Greyblade!

redwullf wrote:

Greyblade wrote:-Non-magical first aid: how do you manage non-magical first aid in your games, bandages and stuff. I am tempted to have my players roll a Wisdom check to stop HP loss, a bit like the First Aid spell works, but maybe you have better ideas?

This is explained on pg. 134 of the Player's Handbook. From -7 the character will lose 1 hp per round until -10 (so, dead in 3 rounds). The rules only say that aid must be administerd, which takes a full round. In other words, another character taking a round to help a fallen comrade can stabalize them by simply saying so. The CKG has some expanded rules (optional) on dealing with negative hit points, but as written, no check is required.

The first aid spell magically administers aid, with a touch from the cleric or druid (or illusionist ). This replaces the need for the round of action a PC will have to spend administering aid.

But isn't this the same as a practical matter? The spell has a CT of 1 if I recall and the non magical action requires a full round. Isn't this functionally the same? Basically, the cleric/druid will use their turn to cast, or the non-cleric/druid will use their full turn to administer aid? Can either class move AND administer aid?

I'd say "not exactly," unless those bandages magically appear in your hand. But, let's talk it out!

On Round 4, Roland falls from his grievous wounds. Aleena the cleric and Fineous the rogue are both able to administer aid, either magically or naturally. Both are a movement away from Roland.

Round 5 - Aleena announces she's moving to Roland.
Round 6 - Aleena declares she's casting first aid, and on her initiative count, assuming she's not struck, she casts the spell and stabilizes Roland.

- or -

Round 5 - Fineous announces and moves to Roland.
Round 6 - Fineous arrives at Roland and must retrieve his bandages. I would probably allow Fineous to move half the distance and also retrieve, but if Roland's farther than half his move away, that could be trouble.
Round 7 - Fineous administers first aid to Roland.

The differences between the two are minor. And yes, I would make it take time to retrieve the bandages. On the flip side, if Aleena is struck then she loses her spell. That could be disastrous of she only has it memorized once. I would allow Fineous to continue to aid Roland, even if he's being struck.

So, barring any interruption magic is quicker, but the natural way gets the job done, too.

@Lord Dynel,

Ok, I like that tradeoff. Correct me if I've drawn wrong conclusions from how you'd run it.

1. The spell is a better option if you're greater than half your movement away and it's unlikely you'll be interrupted.
2. The non-magical aid is a better option if you are less than half your movement away and/or if you expect there's a chance to be interrupted.

This makes both useful and yet with their advantages and disadvantages, making the spell worth having, but allowing non-casters to handle it in a pinch.

mbeacom wrote:@Lord Dynel,

Ok, I like that tradeoff. Correct me if I've drawn wrong conclusions from how you'd run it.

1. The spell is a better option if you're greater than half your movement away and it's unlikely you'll be interrupted.
2. The non-magical aid is a better option if you are less than half your movement away and/or if you expect there's a chance to be interrupted.

This makes both useful and yet with their advantages and disadvantages, making the spell worth having, but allowing non-casters to handle it in a pinch.

Yes, sir, that's how I'd run it. I think it's a good trade-off as well, and keep both as viable options.

I just talked with a friend who is an EMT & plays. He said that emergency 1st aid of this type should take take, at minimum, one minute. So ~6 rounds. There's your real advantage of using a spell...

Arduin wrote:I just talked with a friend who is an EMT & plays. He said that emergency 1st aid of this type should take take, at minimum, one minute. So ~6 rounds. There's your real advantage of using a spell...

If that's how you want to play it, go for it hoss. According to the rules, it's a one-round action.

Besides, I don't think it's a good idea to bring in real-world examples into a fantasy roleplaying game, because there are a whole lot of things that wouldn't hold water very well, the least of which would be how long it takes to apply bandages to a wound. Elves. Dragons. You know, stuff like that.

Lord Dynel wrote:

Arduin wrote:I just talked with a friend who is an EMT & plays. He said that emergency 1st aid of this type should take take, at minimum, one minute. So ~6 rounds. There's your real advantage of using a spell...

If that's how you want to play it, go for it hoss. According to the rules, it's a one-round action.

Besides, I don't think it's a good idea to bring in real-world examples into a fantasy roleplaying game,

I like fantasy when it fits. I also would not use a rule that a normal human walks 10 miles in 30 seconds without magic...

Arduin wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:

Arduin wrote:I just talked with a friend who is an EMT & plays. He said that emergency 1st aid of this type should take take, at minimum, one minute. So ~6 rounds. There's your real advantage of using a spell...

If that's how you want to play it, go for it hoss. According to the rules, it's a one-round action.

Besides, I don't think it's a good idea to bring in real-world examples into a fantasy roleplaying game,

I like fantasy when it fits. I also would not use a rule that a normal human walks 10 miles in 30 seconds without magic...

I like fantasy when it fits too. And, IMO, 1 round action to administer basic first aid fits quite nicely (I could live with 2 rounds I suppose). Fantasy? Sure, but it fits just fine. What's the point of a rule that ruins the rest of the game by making it unfun just to be more realistic? Whats the fun of having a rule that essentially removes two entire party members for an entire combat, just to render first aide to one of them. Talk about punishing the healer. No one would ever do it. So, having such a rule, would, by my estimation, be a good example of when the rules NEED a bit of fantasy.

Arduin wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote:

Arduin wrote:I just talked with a friend who is an EMT & plays. He said that emergency 1st aid of this type should take take, at minimum, one minute. So ~6 rounds. There's your real advantage of using a spell...

If that's how you want to play it, go for it hoss. According to the rules, it's a one-round action.

Besides, I don't think it's a good idea to bring in real-world examples into a fantasy roleplaying game,

I like fantasy when it fits. I also would not use a rule that a normal human walks 10 miles in 30 seconds without magic...

As do I. My point was that in a game with fantastic elements, having first aid administered in 10 seconds isn't that far out there. Considering fireballs, the raising of the dead, quivering palms, and the like, are a normal part of the game.

mbeacom sums it up nicely - sometimes concessions should be made in a fantasy rpg as to make the game more fun. Sure, that might just make it a little unrealistic at times, but if fun is preserved, then that's what wins the day.

And I wouldn't allow such rules, either, walking 10 miles in 30 seconds without magic. But if you classify being able to administer first aid in 10-ish seconds on the same absurdity level as walking 10 miles in 30 seconds, then yes, please house rule the first aid rule for your game.

Oh, and Greyblade? Welcome to the Crusade. Now you see what happens when you ask rules questions around here.

redwullf wrote:Oh, and Greyblade? Welcome to the Crusade. Now you see what happens when you ask rules questions around here.

We are all crusaders after all!

And the thing I love about this place is that even in disagreement, everyone is friendly. You get to see lots of different views, respectfully presented. If everyone agreed, you'd never get to hear some of the great ideas and house rules that people like Treebore, Lord Dynel, Serleran and so many others here have to offer. I enjoy it so much, sometimes I'll just throw out a post, "What would you do if....?" or "How do you run rule X?". The variety of responses is always a bonus.

Hear hear! I think this is the friendliest RPG board out there, likely due to all being Crusaders.

Lord Dynel wrote: As do I. My point was that in a game with fantastic elements, having first aid administered in 10 seconds isn't that far out there. Considering fireballs, the raising of the dead, quivering palms, and the like, are a normal part of the game.

The examples you listed are ALL magic. So, not really relevant. I separate out magic & non-magic otherwise, there is no physical laws that the players can count on...

It may also depend on how you define HP. I no longer go by the C&C definition, where it is all physical damage. I have returned to its definition in 1E AD&D where it is mostly luck, and stress and fatigue, with very little being actual physical damage. So in my games only your first level HP you rolled are actually your physical HP, after that it is all the above factors that add to your HP, Luck, Stress, and fatigue. So if your 5th level and have 40 HP, the first 30 or so HP you lose are loss of luck, the affects of the stress your under, and getting very tired from all that dodging, etc... Its when you get down to that last 4 to 12 HP + Con bonus that your actually getting physically harmed.

So for my games when you do in combat non magical healing I look at it as a pre prepared "quick patch", where they are just quickly throwing a moss filled band aid on you that also is filled with other medicinal herbs to numb pain and reduce chances of infection as well as promote natural healing, and coagulants to stop heavy bleeding. At best this only stabilizes you. Fail the check and your going to keep bleeding.

For non magical healing that actually restores HP, that is longer term. At least a full days rest to recover 1 HP. I also allow for Con bonus to be added. If you have a healer caring for you the whole time, non magically, I allow an additional D4 per day to be recovered. Assuming the daily check of the healer succeeds. If they roll a crit on their check you get back 5 HP that day.

I usually don't have to worry about it, because they normally have plenty of healers. Like my current on line group has two clerics and a druid in the party. So they heal really fast. Non magical healing is rarely even a factor.

Arduin wrote:

Lord Dynel wrote: As do I. My point was that in a game with fantastic elements, having first aid administered in 10 seconds isn't that far out there. Considering fireballs, the raising of the dead, quivering palms, and the like, are a normal part of the game.

The examples you listed are ALL magic. So, not really relevant. I separate out magic & non-magic otherwise, there is no physical laws that the players can count on...

Whether they're all magical or not is really irrelevant. Elves aren't magical. Neither are dwarves. But in a magical world, why can't we do things faster? How about movement (a good nonmagical example that's a head-scratcher)? I can only move 30' in 10 seconds? Average walking speed is ~45 feet / 10 seconds. And only 15' and swing a sword? That's just one of a few examples of non-magical inconsistencies in all RPGs, not just C&C. If we can excuse this, I can guarantee that I can pull bandages out of a pouch and wrap them around a leg wound of yours in 20 seconds.

Anyway, the point isn't to argue over what feasible in the real world as opposed to what's "realistic" and what's "feasible" in an rpg. I'm not saying that your EMT friend isn't correct. I'm simply saying that, at least for me, it makes better sense to have it a one-round action instead of a 10-minute action. If the 10-minute route works for you, go for it. By the rules as written, it's a one-round action.

Treebore wrote:It may also depend on how you define HP. I no longer go by the C&C definition, where it is all physical damage.

This is also true. I follow this as well. I see hit points as more of a combination of health, stamina, luck, moxie, and whatever-else-you-want-to-call-it all rolled into one. When you're tired and hurt, about dead, your luck's about to run out anyway so to me it makes perfect sense.

I have to look at it more for playability. I agree I'd make it faster so you don't have a player "giving aid" taking up his actions for the rest of the combat.

Everybody seems to have a valid point, and that's what so exciting about C&C, it is extremely adaptable to everyone's preferences, me likes that a lot

BTW, other questions guys, where can I find a recap for conditions, such as "blinded", "sickened", etc... I haven't touched the CK Guide yet, so I suppose it's in there?

Thanks a mil as always, and long live C&C!

Blinded is a general condition that is covered in the section called Situational Modifiers. Sickened is not a general term that is covered in the PHB or the CKG, but if a spell or effect creates a situation where one would be sickened, the penalties will be described with the spell or effect.

~O

Ok, in the PHB, I can see the modifier an attacker gets against someone who is blinded, but not the penalties suffered by said defender when blinded, where should i look for that?

Thanks

Edit: nevermind, I just saw that blinded defenders get -10 on their attack rolls. Would you add other penalties to that if you had a character blinded short or long term?

I certainly would add other penalties. You could use the d20 as a baseline if you like, or just use some common sense. I would have a newly blinded character be unable to effectively move unless led around by another character. Just think how terrifying it would be to have had sight your entire life and than one encounter with a wizard or monster takes that away. The -10 would be just the start.

Mostly, beside the -10 and having to be helped along, I would keep blinded mostly a roleplaying situation. And if permenent, start roleplaying the retirement process.

~O