Searching for secret doors

[Blazeguard]

I am a brand-new player and CK so this question might seem silly but I was wondering how others handle the searching for and finding of secret doors?

I am running a game with my kids so that might change things as well but I am wrestling with the idea that there are things that the players may not find simply due to a bad roll of the dice. In doing some research I did come across a blog post, website, something (I can't recall at the moment) that said that they let their player's always find the secret doors but then they use their checks to see if they can figure out how to open the secret door. That seems more along the lines of how I would like to run my game.

Also, do you simply roll when they get close to a secret door to see if they find it or do you only roll if they specify that they are searching?

Just wondering how others do it and looking for some ideas or suggestions on different ways to handle it.

[Omote]

I handle the situation different depending on the necessity of the secret door to be found. As per the rules for finding secret doors, I use a wisdom check when necessary as per the elf racial description. Mostly I just let the players find the secret door if they search for it if it makes the game more interesting.

~O

[AGNKim]

Good question.

I keep the players stats on a piece of paper close to me so I can roll for them sometimes. When the party approaches a secret door, I roll for them all (giving Rogues and Elves the requisite benefits). If they succeed, I let them know they have found it. (If only one succeeds, I pass that person a note and let him know secretly. I'm a big note guy.) If they fail, tough. As an aside, I will sometimes roll dice for no reason, sometimes even asking random players, "What is your Wisdom score? 15?" I love messing with their heads...

All secret doors are the same in my world. They blend in with the wall and have no visible means of opening. When one is found, the party can open it with no problems. However, special doors / portals may have triggers or tricks to opening them. I treat them differently. It is these special doors that the party has to figure out how to open. I never let die rolls figure it out for them.

[serleran]

I have them describe how they are searching, such as close and personal, and what is being searched (the walls, the scones, the moss on the floors...) and the more detail they give me, the better I make their chance. I use a d12 to determine success, with an elf, rogue, or dwarf (with stonework) getting a +2 (+3 if a race rogue). And then, once they find the door, I ask how they plan to open it.

[Sir Ironside]

I am running a game with my kids so that might change things as well but I am wrestling with the idea that there are things that the players may not find simply due to a bad roll of the dice. In doing some research I did come across a blog post, website, something (I can't recall at the moment) that said that they let their player's always find the secret doors but then they use their checks to see if they can figure out how to open the secret door. That seems more along the lines of how I would like to run my game.

The nice thing about C&C is you can mold it to what you want. I don't know how old your kids are, but if they are younger then this isn't a bad route to go.

[kreider204]

WIS if they aren't actively looking for it (intuition-based "searching"), INT if they are actively looking for it (deduction-/knowledge-based searching). Found = open (no separate check to open, unless it's locked). If I need them to find it to further the plot, then I "roll" someone's WIS and announce a success.

[Relaxo]

I keep the players stats on a piece of paper close to me so I can roll for them sometimes. When the party approaches a secret door, I roll for them all (giving Rogues and Elves the requisite benefits). If they succeed, I let them know they have found it. (If only one succeeds, I pass that person a note and let him know secretly. I'm a big note guy.) If they fail, tough. As an aside, I will sometimes roll dice for no reason, sometimes even asking random players, "What is your Wisdom score? 15?" I love messing with their heads...

THIS


But if they really really must find the door to keep the story going, especially with kids, I guess, roll the dice and fake it, so it still seems random.

Serl's idea is great; if they're really thinking and trying, give the roll a bonus or just declare they find it. I mean, if it's an undisguised trap door under a carpet (like a metal door in a wood floor), and they say they move the carpet, well, duh, there's no way they won't see it. But if it's loose floorboards under a carpet and they move the carpet, it's not automatic, but they are focusing their attention in the area, so give it a +3ish.

I had never considered the 'can you open it' angle... that can be clever too. maybe a pick locks, or another search to find the trigger button that opens it, or you can simply smash it if its a normal door (but not a sliding panel of stone). food for thought.

[Blazeguard]

I handle the situation different depending on the necessity of the secret door to be found. As per the rules for finding secret doors, I use a wisdom check when necessary as per the elf racial description. Mostly I just let the players find the secret door if they search for it if it makes the game more interesting.

~O

Where do you find the rules for secret doors? Is that in the CKG? I've been poring over the Player's Handbook but can't say as I've found anything mentioned specifically about secret doors.

[Lord Dynel]

I treat racial abilities like these (meaning anything requiring a SIEGE check) similar to class abilities. When making a SIEGE check is made to spot a hidden door, the elf (or half-elf) adds their level in the check. No other races get to add their level to the check.

As far as how it's done, I roll if they're simply passing by the door. I have their stats behind the screen so I can roll the checks they don't know about (or don't need to know the result on, like trying to hide). If they announce they're searching, I still usually roll the check but sometimes I go ahead and let them do it, with the additional modifier for actively searching, of course. The only thing is about them rolling is that if they roll really good they'll and I say "you find no secret doors," then they usually know for certain there isn't a door there. I like to roll behind the screen for things like this, so they never know with 100% certainty if they were successful or not.

Oh, and welcome to the Crusade, Blaze!

[Arduin]

I handle the situation different depending on the necessity of the secret door to be found. As per the rules for finding secret doors, I use a wisdom check when necessary as per the elf racial description. Mostly I just let the players find the secret door if they search for it if it makes the game more interesting.

~O

Where do you find the rules for secret doors? Is that in the CKG? I've been poring over the Player's Handbook but can't say as I've found anything mentioned specifically about secret doors.

Under the Elf racial description. The CK sets the difficulty for each Door. So, there is no set number to roll.

[redwullf]

I handle the situation different depending on the necessity of the secret door to be found. As per the rules for finding secret doors, I use a wisdom check when necessary as per the elf racial description. Mostly I just let the players find the secret door if they search for it if it makes the game more interesting.

~O

Where do you find the rules for secret doors? Is that in the CKG? I've been poring over the Player's Handbook but can't say as I've found anything mentioned specifically about secret doors.

Under the Elf racial description. The CK sets the difficulty for each Door. So, there is no set number to roll.

Or, more universally under "Wisdom" in the chapter "USING ATTRIBUTE CHECKS IN YOUR GAME" towards the back of the book. A Wisdom check covers most "find hidden things" scenarios that aren't otherwise handled through narrative and role playing. This, by the way, has been the source of hours of debate on these very boards.

[mbeacom]

I'm in the camp of "it depends".

If finding the secret door is absolutely imperative (e.g. that's where the quest item is), then they pretty much have to find it. I'd first roll privately to see if they notice, a WIS check against the difficulty of the door to spot. If they all fail that, I'd wait to see if they offer to search for secret doors. If they do, I'd elicit some more specifics (and when you do this, you kind of tip your hand that there IS a secret door). If they don't then describe searching the appropriate area, I might mention something out of place (give a hint) and then let them describe their further investigation and then reveal the door.

Now, if what's behind the secret door is NOT vital to the story, I'd probably just allow them to not find it (assuming a failed siege check), or perhaps, if what's behind it makes the game more fun if they DO find it, I'd probably drop a hint that something seems out of place.

My players LOVE it when stuff is "out of place". Saying you get the impression something is out of place is a very nice way of being vague and telling the players to slow down and check everything. Now, when they come into a new place that seems like it should be interesting, my players will flat out ask me "does anything seem out of place?". This is awesome because it then gives me the opportunity to hint and the players don't feel like you're giving them a freebie.

One thing I've learned in my DM career is that it's hard to give too many hints. Players almost always know less about what's going on than you think they do, simply because they're not thinking about the game all week long in preparation and they're not writing the story trying to make the elements coherent. They're just playing along and having a good time. SO even though as a DM you may feel like you're being painfully obvious, it's still probably pretty vague to the players.

[Relaxo]

you make several good points, Mbeacom

[serleran]

Sometimes, because it doesn't happen very often, if the player asks to find secret doors and I didn't have one there, but they would have made the check anyway... I'll put a door there but in some weird place, like this time I had a secret door 3.5 feet off the floor, behind a mural of a nude dwarf female (it was inside The Busted Wench, a tavern ran by an ex-adventurer dwarf known for his hankering for the "facials.") Inside it, he kept the special sauce... a drink of fire-breathing capability which I'd previously decided he had and the players knew about because they'd bought some of it.

Anyway, not really what the thread was about.