Troll Lord Games

Not to sound critical or start a debate regarding balance, but what is a quick and simple patch for the C&C Fighter. I just feel he's a tad under-powered? Would making Combat Superiority work against targets with HD half the Fighter's level work?

Skywalker wrote:Not to sound critical or start a debate regarding balance, but what is a quick and simple patch for the C&C Fighter. I just feel he's a tad under-powered?

Try doing a forum search. You'll find a ton of threads on this very subject.

Would making Combat Superiority work against targets with HD half the Fighter's level work?

I don't see why not.

R-

Skywalker wrote:Not to sound critical or start a debate regarding balance, but what is a quick and simple patch for the C&C Fighter. I just feel he's a tad under-powered? Would making Combat Superiority work against targets with HD half the Fighter's level work?

I'll guess I'll skip the "he's not underpowered" spiel and say yes, Combat Dominance (assuming that's what you meant) working against foes of 1/2 HD of the fighter would work fine. You may or may not want to adjust his XP table, though, as that will make the fighter more powerful than he currently is. It also means the fighter will need another ability at 16th, 20th, and 24th, as Combat Dominance is expanded at those levels. If you aren't using the CKG, or don't plan on getting that high, then don't worry about it. Likewise, with this suggested adjustment to Combat Dominance you really wouldn't need any replacement abilities.

Try replacing Combat Dominance with this:

Foe Slayer: Against enemies of one hit die of any size, Fighters gain extra attacks as they progress in level. They have two attacks at 3rd level, three attacks at 7th level, four attacks at 11th level, and five attacks at 15th level. At 16th level this ability extends to enemies of up to two hit dice, at 20th level it extends to enemies of up to 3 hit dice, and at 24th level to all enemies of 4 hit dice. In addition, at 15th level, the Fighter will automatically kill any creature of 1 hit die with a successful hit. At 24th level, they automatically kill any creature of 2 hit dice with a successful hit.

I have house rules from several past or present forum members that do a variety of things, such as give feats or similar "maneuver" actions to fighters, and here is what I do:

Fighters:
They get to use their BtH to make combat related SIEGE checks, plus their specialization bonuses when using that weapon. All other classes use just their BtH.

Fighters can also learn to master (specialize) a new weapon every 3 levels. So at 4th, 7th, 10th, and so on they can master a new weapon. They only get the +1 to hit and damage. These additional weapons never increase to +2 like your first weapon does. Unless you use one of your additional "mastery's" to do so. So if you want to be +2 with the bow, you can use your 4th and 7th level mastery to do so. To be clear, the 7th level bonus can only be used to up your first chosen weapon to +2, or you keep it at +1 and chose a different weapon to have a +1. You do not increase your first weapon to +2 and pick an additional weapon to +1, you do not get both.

Combat Dominance is now "Mass Combat Dominance". They get multiple attacks per round whenever the Fighter is taking on 3 or more opponents at one time. Irregardless of HD. 1 attack per opponent, this replaces any other attacks.

Skywalker wrote:Not to sound critical or start a debate regarding balance, but what is a quick and simple patch for the C&C Fighter. I just feel he's a tad under-powered? Would making Combat Superiority work against targets with HD half the Fighter's level work?

That's workable. I also allow magic, heavy armour +'s to add to saves for spells causing damage. (Fire ball & the like)

I also change the XP progression to the Magic user table starting as 12th level.

I find changing the extra attack ability only is sufficient.

One attack at levels 1 - 6. 2 at 7 - 12. 3 at 13+. Allow CD to work within EA and you've got nothing but game. Oh, and enforcing weapon restrictions...

I give the fighters Combat Dominance a push. the HD of creature is increased by one for every four levels gained.

IE: a 9th level Fighter uses his combat Dominance on creatures with 3 HD or less, ect..


I also have a lot of 3.5 players who simple enjoy the smoothness of C&C, I allow siege engines to perform feats if it fits into the characters fighting style played off as well as background points.

Had a fighter who roleplayed his Fighter using power attack, the CL got easier as he grew in levels til eventually he was able to use it a higher levels without a roll.


Many forget the power of the siege and how a skilled role playing fighter (or any character for that matter) can be ridiculously power in the hands of someone with a good imagination.

Their base attack makes the difference, at higher levels a pure fighter attempting something epic with a magical sword he specializes in.. can be very vicious if role played off.


I also do away with any other netclass that has a fighters bth. I wont allow it, the same for netclasses with additional attacks.


I have finally purchased the CKG and their are all kindsa alt methods to gain additional attacks with a penalty or siege of some sort. Don't think any other class but fighter should have the ability for a second attack without penalty.


Food for thought.

That is why for combat related SIEGE checks I use BtH instead of level. The Fighter will be at least 1 BtH better than the other classes of the same level. I then also allow them to add their "to hit" for their specialized weapons, making them substantially better than the other fighter types, let alone the non fighter types when using their favored weapons. I've been doing this for at least 5 years now and have been very pleased with how it helps the fighter stand out.

I dont know; maybe I have not had enough fighters at my table since having switched from Pathfinder to C&C. We have not needed any power-ups for the fighter. Weapon specialization and the advantages out of the CKG makes for a great class. I only allow fighter advantages to fighters. That may be the key. We see no reason to tweak it any further...not yet anyway.

Snoring Rock wrote:I dont know; maybe I have not had enough fighters at my table since having switched from Pathfinder to C&C. We have not needed any power-ups for the fighter. Weapon specialization and the advantages out of the CKG makes for a great class. I only allow fighter advantages to fighters. That may be the key. We see no reason to tweak it any further...not yet anyway.

I've had a fair number of Rangers, Paladins and Knights played. Even a couple of Bards and a Monk or two.

Yeah Snoring Rock, I'm actually in the Fighter is not broken camp myself.

Relaxo wrote:Yeah Snoring Rock, I'm actually in the Fighter is not broken camp myself.

I'm also in that camp. The fighter is the best fighter in the game. No tweeking necessary.

~O

Omote wrote:

Relaxo wrote:Yeah Snoring Rock, I'm actually in the Fighter is not broken camp myself.

I'm also in that camp. The fighter is the best fighter in the game. No tweeking necessary.

~O

Yep. I think a lot of people think that because the fighter don't get many toys, then that equals underpowered/needs fixing/boring/etc. He's a fighter. He fights. I think he does it quite well.

I think, watching players over the years, that a fighter is one of those classes that you (as a player) should really be sure you want to play going into it. Most people usually refer to the cleric, when that kind of talk comes up. And while that's true of the cleric (a lot of levels of healing and buffing and turning undead), I've always believed it's more true of the fighter. And he even has less toys to play with, I'll admit. But he does one thing better than anyone else in the game, and that's fight. Not much else. I can understand that because he don't come with a lot of fiddly bits, some people's instincts are to give him some. And if you want to, it's all good - it won't break anything. I don't think he needs them, though. I think he does just fine the way he is.

Omote wrote: The fighter is the best fighter in the game.
~O

Yeah, that's how they got that name.


(I couldn't resist)

I wouldn't call the Fighter broken, just sub par. Combat Dominance definitely sucks. Knights get all their bells and whistles, so do Paladins, Barbarians, Bards and Monks. Wouldn't hurt to give the Fighter a little more.

Omote,

Don't forget, you give the Fighter feats. So you have tweaked them.

What?! Omote is a tweaker? No tweaking. If you keep doing that you could go blind.

Skywalker,

The fighter as is in C&C in not underpowered, which was also metioned by someothers above. The fighter has the best BtHB, weapon specialization, and an extra attack. I do agree that Combat Dominance as writen is not a great ability. One simple method to improve the fighter is to replace Combat Dominance with Cleave the D&D 3.5ed feat.

JLL

Good suggestion. Combat dominance is dependent upon the GM and what they may throw at the fighter. The Cleave Feat or the Cleave Advantage in the CKG would fill that gap.

I allow CKG advantage for those specifice classes/races.

Treebore wrote:I wouldn't call the Fighter broken, just sub par. Combat Dominance definitely sucks. Knights get all their bells and whistles, so do Paladins, Barbarians, Bards and Monks. Wouldn't hurt to give the Fighter a little more.

Omote,

Don't forget, you give the Fighter feats. So you have tweaked them.

I play a few versions of C&C. In one campaign it is pretty much straight by the book. I played a fighter in that campaign and no other class could out melee that guy. He definitely hit more often than the other fighter-types (barbarian and a monk). As for damage output, he was just as good as the barbarian and monk. If you want the best HITTER, nobody.. NODOFY outfights the FIGHTER!

And yes, Treeb is right about about the campaign I personally run. I do allow talents (feats), but for all classes, not just the fighter.

~O

Yes, the Fighter does get a +15% better chance of hitting, and +2 to any damage by 7th level, with their weapon of specialization. However, its so called "Combat Dominance" is pretty much ineffective by the time they even start to get to use it. By 4th level they rarely run into creatures of 1 HD or less. They are running into Gnolls, Bugbears, Ogres, Ungern, and the like. Even when they do the Wizard puts 2 to 8 of them asleep with their Sleep spell. So even when they do get to use it, its no big deal.]

So I rewrote, as several others have, and it does help make the ability useful much more often, and does help the Fighter to lay waste to the battle field in those instances.

I like mine because it encourages the Fighter to wade into the thick of battling the masses so he can lay waste to all of those around him. When their dice rolls co operate, that is precisely what they do. Of course, they are surrounded, so get hit often as well, especially from flankers and those behind them. But I like it. When they roll well they are like a mini Fireball going off every round, doing 3 to 10 damage to whatever they hit. Or if they go 2 handed, 4 to 14 damage per round. Again, dependent on how often the dice give them good rolls.

It easily evokes those classic pictures of Conan, etc... being surrounded by their enemies, and they are lashing out, cutting them all down. So yeah, I really like it, and so does the Fighter.

My next tweak was just allowing them to pick up more Specializations. Seems pretty stupid to me to have the Fighter, supposed "Master of Weapons", only have one weapon they are really good with. So I have them pick up their first new one at 4th level. They get another at 7th, but I also allow them to double specialize in the weapon they picked up at 4th instead. Then again at 10th, and every 3 levels there after.

I've also been working with some bow mastery rules, but that is sporadic, and I haven't really been happy with it as of yet. I am thinking that to be happy with what I have been doing so far I will have to create a "Bow Master" fighter based class. Wouldn't be the first time I've done that, I had an Archer class back in my 2E days, largely stolen from a Dragon magazine article. I need to open up the C&C Netbook of Classes and see if a version has been done in that.

As for what else to do? Not really sure. Combined with how I allow the SIEGE engine to be used, the Fighter is pretty devastating in my games. Certainly not on par with the Wizard and Cleric and Druid, especially at really high levels, but still impressive in its own way.