Troll Lord Games

I might be out of luck and if so I can deal with it BUT.....I have been out of C&C for a while now. Kinda taking a tour through the new rpg game world, Hitting pathfinder,DCC,Marvel and others. Now I'm tired of all the new games and we will be playing C&C for at least the next good while.

Right before we changed to Pathfinder we bought three new players handbooks along with the (at the time) New CCG. I see now the new printings of the books added content and changed a few things.

Is there a pdf or something with the new changes? I'm sure we will be getting the new books as well but my guess is not for a few months.


I read somewhere a while back that there was but never could find it.

Either way its good to be home again. Rule Heavy Games were really dragging my fun factor DOWN.

No. Best thing to do is buy a PDF of the new printing and make up your own PDF of the changes.

Probably the most significant change is that encumbrance rules have been simplified. It was in fact the last thing I worked on before the book went to print. The bulk of the editing was simply grammar fixes and incorporating errata. The number of pages in a spellbook increased, and the maze spell no longer shuts down after ten minutes of sitting upon your hands.

Let's not forget spell resistance. A sentence was added stating (approximately) that every creature has an inherent spell resistance of 1, unless otherwise stated.

As I recall, there was a pdf detailing the changes to the barbarian and the monk (from the 4th printing). Maybe a few other things.

If he has the 3rd printing than he has everything that matters. If he has the second printing, then he is also missing out on all the Illusion spells that were added. Granted, most of those spells are pretty lame. He would also need the rewrite of the Monk and Barbarian. Plus Grappling and the related actions were very significantly changed. Then there is the appendix on multi classing and class and a half that were added.

So if it is the second printing you have, get the PDF like I suggested. IF you have the 3rd printing, the changes were so minor, you don't really need them, because it was largely a rewording of encumbrance. NOTHING else, from what I was officially told, or noticed since I got the 4th printing. Aside from some very minor errata issues.

Tree's pretty much got it right. In my opinion, I'd get at least the 4th printing. The 5th, in color, is nice but not dire. Neither is the 4th, for that matter.

If I have one aggravation with TLG it is this. Most companies when they update the rules in new printings will release a document containing the updates to the rules and errata. However, TLG seems to think we all have the money to lay down on new PHB's every time they change something. For those of us who value rules accuracy this is frustrating as hell.

For a company that promised no revisions to the system they sure have done a lot of revising.

The little revisions from printing to printing hardly neccessitate a new version of the book. When they updated the Barbarian class from 3rd printing to 4th, I think TLG did put out a document. The encumbrance rules from 4th to 5th printing are of note, but hardly worth purchasing a new PHB for. Full-color PHB with all of Peter Bradley's art in wonderful color, yeah, buy it for that! The other changes are barely noticible.

~O

If there is a document it is not on the main website. As far as the 'little' changes go: Encumbrance Rules, The Barbarian, Poison, New Illusionist Spells and such have all been added since the first printing. C&C is pretty much at a 1.5 version of the rules with all of this.

The first printing of the rules must have had a low print run. I have no idea if this is true or not, but I would think that the 3rd printing of the PHB was the biggest. Forget about 1st and 2nd - get the info from 3rd-5th if you need to.

~O

I think you missed my point; there is no reason that I should have to buy printing 3,4 or 5 to get the significant amount of updates to the rules. They should have been provided at each new printing as a PDF.


I find it concerning that we were promised no revisions but the game has been revised. I also find it concerning that with each new revision we have to plop down more money to get the revisions. It makes me wonder how many of the sales of the PHB are new and how many are existing customers who are buying new copies to keep up with the changes. To me, it almost looks like loyal fans and customers are being milked rather than provided new product.

I have the second printing. I do remember people talking about changes to the Barb and Monk but never saw them myself.

While I do wish a errata change to the rules would be carried in one updated document....it isn't the end of the world. I don't think anyone in my gang has ever expressed a desire to play either class.

I'll fork over the cash for the pdf and print out changes IF it becomes a issue between now and when I scrape the cash together for new and much more pretty core books!

GameOgre wrote:I have the second printing. I do remember people talking about changes to the Barb and Monk but never saw them myself.

While I do wish a errata change to the rules would be carried in one updated document....it isn't the end of the world. I don't think anyone in my gang has ever expressed a desire to play either class.

I'll fork over the cash for the pdf and print out changes IF it becomes a issue between now and when I scrape the cash together for new and much more pretty core books!

The March madness sales are not that far off. Get the third or 4th printings then, depending on which deal is within your budget needs.

The customers being milked? I hardly think so. I personally think that C&C is crazy for their marketing practices as is. I mean, when the sales come around TLG practically gives their books away. I find it hard to believe that TLG makes very much money at all on their prices. Hell, the hardcore fans themselves told TLG to raise the prices on the PHB when Steve Chenault was actually arguing against doing so when the 4th printing was released. The 5th printing of the PHB is worth every penny of the $29.99 it retails for. Whether or not you want to purchase it, or need to, is up to you.

I've been around these parts for a very long time now. TLG never said that they wouldn't revise their PHBs, they said (way back in the day) that they wouldn't move to a new edition.

If TLG didn't revise, or update their rules with errata, and even getting rid of the worthless barbarian from the earlier printings, I would be upset. TLG owes it to their fans to continue to make their new releases better with each successive printing. If the same book was released, with the same errors, I'm not sure any of us would be a fans of the C&C game, or at the very least, Troll Lord Games as a company.

I play in a game where there are a few people who flat out refuse to buy new C&C PHBs. They started with the 3rd printing, and eventually moved to the 4th. Now with the 5th, they have decided not to get the new color version of the PHB. The GM runs the game with the players who have the 5th printing must follow the rules in that book, while the 4th printing players must stick to the rules in that book. If this was two different editions, this simply wouldn't work. C&C does not have editions, and I'm playing in that game as proof the different printings work perfectly well together!

Bottom line, don't pick up a new copy of the PHB if you don't feel the need to. It won't matter. Please don't start beleaguering those of us who do choose to buy each new successive printing.

If TLG changes the edition of the C&C game by significantly altering the rules to the point where the various books do not work with one another, I will reserve the right to change my stance on this topic.

~O

Considering how much of the PHB I ignore already, I don't really see myself buying another print. And color art just doesn't bring the boing to me, so the gimmick is relative.

That said, I do like some of the recent changes so that's something.

Omote wrote:
I've been around these parts for a very long time now. TLG never said that they wouldn't revise their PHBs, they said (way back in the day) that they wouldn't move to a new edition.

As have I, and I remember on the old, old boards they dis say that they would never be revisions or a new edition. Promise one has been broken with each successive printing.

If TLG didn't revise, or update their rules with errata, and even getting rid of the worthless barbarian from the earlier printings, I would be upset. TLG owes it to their fans to continue to make their new releases better with each successive printing. If the same book was released, with the same errors, I'm not sure any of us would be a fans of the C&C game, or at the very least, Troll Lord Games as a company.

Fixing typos is one thing. Wholesale revisions of major points to the rules and saying if you want to stay current buy the books is another. They should owe it to their earliest customers to provide the changes since they already bought the books.

I play in a game where there are a few people who flat out refuse to buy new C&C PHBs. They started with the 3rd printing, and eventually moved to the 4th. Now with the 5th, they have decided not to get the new color version of the PHB. The GM runs the game with the players who have the 5th printing must follow the rules in that book, while the 4th printing players must stick to the rules in that book. If this was two different editions, this simply wouldn't work. C&C does not have editions, and I'm playing in that game as proof the different printings work perfectly well together!

So, someone playing a Barbarian from print one can play along with a Barbarian from print four with no issues? Someone with an Illusionist from print two cannot have access to the same spells as a player from print four? An Assassin from print four can poison more effectively than an Assassin from print one? No issue? I see tons of issues with this. A game run from print one will play differently than a game from print four and it will not work so perfectly when mixing printings.

Bottom line, don't pick up a new copy of the PHB if you don't feel the need to. It won't matter. Please don't start beleaguering those of us who do choose to buy each new successive printing.

When did I do this? I merely pointed out that the Trolls not releasing the updates or errata to those who have already purchased the books is unfair to those that were 'early adopters' of the game. Basically, they are saying, "Hey guys we made a new print and have all these groovy changes but to get them you have to shell out 30 bucks."

If TLG changes the edition of the C&C game by significantly altering the rules to the point where the various books do not work with one another, I will reserve the right to change my stance on this topic.

~O

The rules have been significantly altered to the point that the game is different than it was a few years ago. If it continues to be altered with each print, the game you have now will not resemble the game that is a few printings down the line. You will have a new edition without even having to say so.

There would be no issue here if TLG would just release a document with each printing that notes the changes and revisions to those that already have the books. Instead they make major changes and ask that you buy the new print to stay current. How is that not milking?

Plus the Trolls (Steve) said they would put up a PDF of the revisions. When they did it was very incomplete and had NONE of the new Illusionist spells or anything from the Appendix. So I'd just like them to do what they said they would do. Or allow one of us to do it.

In the mean time buying the PDF is probably the best way to go.

I don't mean to sound like I'm taking the "a-hole" approach (and if it comes off that way I sincerely apologize) but previous printings work just fine. Yes, the barbarian is different. He's the biggest change. The monk has a few minor changes and the illusionist has some new spells (and the spells aren't all that spectacular, in my personal opinion, but that's me). The encumbrance rules are a little more streamlined, too.

But as long as everyone at you table's using the same book, there should be issues. Now, I'm not making excuses for the Trolls - they should have had an errata/update booklet that detailed all the changes to the classes and encumbrance. I'd leave out the illusionist spells, but that's me...and not because they're bad, but because not having them isn't going to break anything.

I haven't been here as long as some of you fellows, but I as long as I've been here I've never heard the words "new edition" come out of any of the Trolls' mouths. That's a fine line anyway, to me. Call it a new edition, an update, a revision, or a printing....the mechanics have changed and they've added content to the book. I guess it comes down to how much the Trolls are willing to concede of that content and how much we, the customers, should have to pay for.

The Siege Engine is still the Siege Engine at the very least.

I am looking at my second printing PHB and am comparing it to a certain OGC document compiled by another member of the forums. As of this moment I am seeing enough changes to the Barbarian alone to say that this would cause significant conflict if different printings of the book were used at one table. The rest I gave a cursory look and see enough of a difference to have warranted a PDF of some sort to bridge the gap.

I'm sorry, but after seeing this I cannot believe that you can use any printing together and there will be no issue.

Julian Grimm wrote:I am looking at my second printing PHB and am comparing it to a certain OGC document compiled by another member of the forums. As of this moment I am seeing enough changes to the Barbarian alone to say that this would cause significant conflict if different printings of the book were used at one table. The rest I gave a cursory look and see enough of a difference to have warranted a PDF of some sort to bridge the gap.

I'm sorry, but after seeing this I cannot believe that you can use any printing together and there will be no issue.

Well, that's true. That's why I had said that as long as everyone at the table's using the same book, it doesn't matter what particular edition/printing/version is being used.

Yeah, its clearly NOT a problem if everyone is using the same printing. Heck, when our face to face group was at 7 players, we used 3 different printings. We just knew how to identify which book was which printing, so when a player needed something from the 4th printing they would be handed that book. IF they were playing the Barbarian (and they were) they had the latest printing by default.

So if your like me, and have every printing, it can still work out, because the vast majority of the rules are the same between printings, as well as the equipment/price list, etc... Since they were all my books, no one had any issues with "sharing" the books, since I was the owner and was telling them to share.

I don't want to counterpoint all of the above statements, save one (see below). It's easier just to say that I totally disagree with you on all of these points.

Julian Grimm wrote:There would be no issue here if TLG would just release a document with each printing that notes the changes and revisions to those that already have the books. Instead they make major changes and ask that you buy the new print to stay current. How is that not milking?

By TLG offering a new book for purchase is marketing. They're entitled to make a little money is this Gods-forsaken industry too, right? The first thing we learn in life is to say no. If they put out a new book that you are not in favor of, you can just say no. Which, apparently you have multiple times. By asking you to participate in their industry is not milking anything. If TLG were to release a book that only has half of the rules needed to play, and then asked you to purchase another book to get the rest of the rules, that sir, would be milking it. TLG is not doing that.

~O

I think the issue seems to be that people perceive that C&C isn't multiple editions.

It obviously has several editions.

It seems pretty standard to call major rule changes to core books new editions. AD&D 1E verse AD&D2E,Tunnels and Trolls 5.5 Tunnels and Trolls 7.5,ect.. Sometimes new editions are so much like the old editions as to be backwards compatible. See AD&D 1 and 2E and every edition of T&T.

Each new editions you have to go out and buy the new core books to stay updated. Now if its not a new edition then the companies put out errata to fix mistakes and rule changes as they go along. For the most part its just the accepted system.

For whatever reasons new editions in C&C are not called new editions. Probably out of some hyperbole early on(We will not put out new editions! Like THAT game!) but as most politicians can tell you its easy to promise the world before you get in than deal with the reality of life once in office.

If No new editions was a practical business option a LOT of things in the RPG industry would be different. Frankly its ridicules to expect ANY RPG business to limit its revenue in that way.

I don't care what Steve or anyone else said years and years ago. We can't always live up to our ideals we had at 20 years old when we hit 40. Heck,most of the time our ideals are totally different by then!

Because of this issue C&C doesn't put out errata to update all there books but does put out NEW Printings with rule changes and other alterations about as often as other companies put out new editions.

They are the same thing!

Lets just call the kettle a Kettle and get on with things.

TLG puts out a mighty fine rpg that we all seem to love and have fun playing. If the company isn't perfect.....who the heck is?

Heck C&C is my favorite game and I just spent the last year or so not playing it. Instead I put $400 or so easy into Pathfinder DCCRPG and others. Maybe if folks like me spent that cash instead on C&C we wouldn't be having this conversation!

That is just the point, though. The SIEGE engine has not changed at all. The only thing that changed, rules wise, is the Barbarian, encumbrance, and Grappling/Overbearing. I don't know about anyone else, but I do not consider those major rules changes.

Omote wrote: If they put out a new book that you are not in favor of, you can just say no. Which, apparently you have multiple times.

Something I continue to do until TLG puts out something I want to buy. So far, the only thing they have put out in the past couple years that I bought was Classic Monsters. The rest is just stuff I do not want or refuse to buy based on a fiasco made of the product.

If TLG were to release a book that only has half of the rules needed to play, and then asked you to purchase another book to get the rest of the rules, that sir, would be milking it.

First 1/2 of the rules needed to play: PHB

Second 1/2 of the rules needed to play: M&T

Each successive printing of the PHB changes the rules culminating in print 4 with significant changes.

Comparing print 2 to a certain squashed SRD reveals the changes are enough to cause issues if different prints are used.

The CKG ceases to be fully compatible with prints prior to 4.

No official errata or update documents.

Therefore, those of us who value staying current with the changes are forced to buy new printings of all of the books.

And this is not milking?

So TSR was guilty of milking its customers, based on your statement, because you had to purchase the 1st edition PHB, MM, and DMG to get all the rules?

How about when TSR did its revision of the DMG, adding material? Is that milking?

Releasing a PDF of the new barbarian I support. This argument of TLG milking its customers falls flat on its face.

Sorry to be chiming in so late on this, but I wasn't sure I still had it and I can't seem to find it on the TLG site, but I have the TLG produced errata pdf for the 4th print PHB & 3rd print M&T. It includes the new barbarian and the new illusionist's spell. If anyone would like, shot me a PM and I'll email it out.

R-

Julian Grimm wrote:
First 1/2 of the rules needed to play: PHB

Second 1/2 of the rules needed to play: M&T

Only of one is dull and has no access to the interwebtubes. I played with just the PHB for 3 months. I just converted monsters from the SRD.

Your overreaching is funny though.