Troll Lord Games

Hey all,

Thought I'd share an email I sent to my players regarding magical healing to get some feedback from the greater community:

"After thinking lots about the Hit point system I've decided that I'm fine with HP but it's the recuperation and healing of them that poses a problem. As I see it, a 1st level fighter taking 10 points of damage from a longsword is very different to a 10th level fighter taking the same damage. To one it's a near-mortal wound, to the other just a scratch...

For example, 2 warriors walk into a church, both suffering the exact same injury (a nasty gash to the forearm). To the 1st level fighter the wound cost him 5hp of his 10 total but the same wound on the 10th level fighter is represented by 50hp of his 100hp total. The lowly 1st level cleric that comes to attend the warriors casts Cure Light Wounds and heals the 1st level fighter good as new, but the same spell can barely help the same injury on the 10th level fighter.

So, what I'm thinking is changing healing so it's reliant on the recipient's level. Cure Light Wounds will now only heal 1d4hp instead of 1d8, but multiplied by the level of the recipient, regardless of the caster level. Cure Serious Wounds will be 2d4xlevel and Cure Critical 3d4xlevel. So now a 1st level cleric might cast cure light on the 10th level fighter and end up healing 40hp.. but it would appear the same (and effectively is the same) as healing 4hp on a 1st level fighter. "

I was thinking of adjusting natural healing in a similar manner, possibly 1hp/level/full day of rest.
Also, the Cause Wounds spells would not change to deal damage in a per hit die manner as I see that as being overpowered. Perhaps the Cause Wounds spell would simply be renamed to avoid confusion.

What issues can you folks see eventuating from such a thing?

falrinth wrote:
So, what I'm thinking is changing healing so it's reliant on the recipient's level. Cure Light Wounds will now only heal 1d4hp instead of 1d8, but multiplied by the level of the recipient, regardless of the caster level. Cure Serious Wounds will be 2d4xlevel and Cure Critical 3d4xlevel. So now a 1st level cleric might cast cure light on the 10th level fighter and end up healing 40hp.. but it would appear the same (and effectively is the same) as healing 4hp on a 1st level fighter. "

What issues can you folks see eventuating from such a thing?

Interesting ideas. I am always open to new ideas re: healing as I find the way damage and healing works in D&D type games a bit wanting

Two issues with your proposal that immediately come to mind are:

1) those 1d8 cure light wounds at 1st level are lifesavers...literally. You might have a survival problem with low level parties without those juicy 1d8s.

2) the average benefit of your version of a cure light wounds (2.5 hp/level) scales almost exactly with a Wizard's h.p. (ignoring constitution etc.), cure serious scales with rogues and clerics (roughly speaking) and cure critical more than fully scales with fighter types (averages 7.5 level while even the mighty barbarian scales at only 6.5+Con). What this means is, especially for mid to high levels as all these spells become available, cure spells amount to close to a full Heal (in h.p. terms only,obviously, no removal of other deleterious effects)

It also makes things like cure light wounds potions and low level cleric henchmen much more valuable to the later game

Nothing wrong with any of that, of course, but it may be weaker than you want at low levels and stronger than you want at higher levels

Hello falrinth! My apology comes at the bottom of my post...

I've wrestled with this issue, too, though it was years ago. In fact, it was right at the end of 2nd Edition AD&D and the beginning of 3rd Edition. I had just heard about 3rd's new mechanic of healing your level per day of hit points. I might of even thought of a near exact example to the one you wrote. In your scenario, both wounds - exactly the same - would both be healed up in the same amount of time (5 days). What it doesn't address is the situation of both of them entering and needing attention from the same situation (like the one your friend initially described).

One thing your player did not address, though, is the level disparity and what caused the wound. Let me present you with another scenario, if you don't mind. Both the 1st level fighter and the 10th level one walk into very similar alleyways on the wrong side of town. Both are accosted by a low-level cutpurse, and both get stabbed on the arm. The cutpurse does 5 points of damage to each one with the that knife jab but while the 10th level fighter laughs at the lowly cutpurse, the 1st level one is in mortal danger.

Your friend is right - to one it is a near mortal wound, while to other it is just a scratch. I think this is where the level discrepancy comes into effect and benefits the high-level fighter (especially for his years of hard work). With the abstract nature of hit points, the 10th level fighter was able to take that knife wound in stride - however you want to describe it (he's luckier, etc.) he was able to turn a wound that would kill a lesser man (or almost kill a 1st level fighter) and turn it into a flesh wound.

It sounds like your friend is really looking for a system like GURPS, where hit points usually remain static over a character's career while the character's skill and ability change. Something I might recommend you guys looking into, and it may provide a solution, would be the Wound/Vitality Point system fro the d20 SRD. If you're unfamiliar, your Wound Points represent your Constitution score, while your Vitality is represented by your hit point total. Vitality is like fatigue, and it used in combat just like HPs are now. Wound points are reserved for critical hits or when Vitality is used up. The link provides complete rules for switching over to the WP/VP system. It might be worth your and your players taking a look at. With this system, the 1 hp/level/day would be in effect for VP and 1/day for WP.

I'll apologize for not addressing your question directly! I sometimes like to give another viewpoint, something else to consider. As your parting question asks, I see a situation of other questions (like the one above, two people getting hit from the same knife attack from the same attacker) also being asked...but maybe not. As for your change, specifically, from a balance standpoint, I think it'd be fine. I would personally find it hard to accept as to why a higher level recipient would get more healing than a lower level one. A cure light wounds healing 5 points of damage should clear that knife wound right up, for both recipients - just to one new to the adventuring world, he took it harder than the one that's been hit many time over the years and have gotten used to it. That'd be my only question.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Aramis - We're experiencing the hardships of this houserule at level one right now actually! It's tough having only a 1d4hp Cure Light Wounds but, the spell is for light wounds, and anything more than 4 hit points damage for these 1st levellers is certainly more serous than that.

Lord Dynel - Thanks for the lengthy reply, and to further discuss: I see your alleyway encounter from this point of view. The 5 points of damage to the 1st level fighter is more than a light wound. It's half her hit points. It's a nasty gash across the belly or 2 inch stab into the shoulder.. it's nasty. For our 10th level fighter with 80hp, the same damage is a scratch, akin to something an angry kitten might leave behind.

This is the reflection of the difference in experience and skill between our two fighters. I am fine with the way Hit Points abstractly represent this.

Now they go to the lowly cleric with his Cure Light Wounds and with a half-decent roll both can be healed back to full. For our 1st level fighter, that moderate wound has been healed, for our experienced warrior, the scratch is also dealt with. It does seem as though the acolyte cleric just did some very impressive healing on a hefty wound in one case yet barely sealed a scratch in the other.. with the same spell!

My problem is, if the experienced fighter came in with the exact same wound as his low-level counterpart, the exact same cleric could not heal him in the same manner with the same spell, because the wound would be represented by a greater number of hit points. This doesn't make sense in my imagination!

I can see my houserule throwing things out of mechanical balance but still being more 'realistic' or at least believable.

I have looked into the Wound/Vitality system and while I do like it, I think I prefer the simplicity of C&C in the end.

I like hearing opinions on the matter though! Please keep 'em coming

I believe this is explained in the AD&D PHB. HP is not the level of actual damage you receive. It is a number that may indicate the amount of luck and skill you have left before a fatal blow may take you down. A 1st level novice does not die any easier than a 10th level master. Flesh is flesh and bone is bone. As you go up in level you become more difficult to take down. Chances are that at 1st level you will get stuck for 10 hp of damage, which in this case would represent a stab to the abdomen. For a 10th level guy that was a mere scratch or not even that; a chance of being stabbed. Some hp loss may not be any damage at all, but exhaustion or even just the CHANCE that the next blow may be a killer blow.

Now that does not settle the healing issue unless you see it the same way. The healing or cure spell not only heals wounds but lessens the chance of the final blow. In actuality that 10th level fighter fought against a dragon for round after round, and never received a scratch, although his hp's were being whittled away. It was his "luck" running out. Eventually the dragon lands a blow for 5 hp's and the character had only 2. Well, his luck ran out and so did his skill. He was bitten nearly in two.

It can be narrated anyway you like. But hp's were really never supposed to represent actual life points or be a measure of exactly how much damage or a number of wounds you have. It does not matter how the dagger gets thrust into the beating heart of the victim, whether it be through 100 hp of damage or 2.

Anyway, that was the original intent and was explained by Gary himself. Much like battle, each jab and parry was not measured by each dice roll. The dice roll represented 10 seconds worth of blows, dodges and parries. It was a culmination of blows, not a single strike. We have come to interpret differently than what the original intend of the designer was.

3.5 moved us further from this original concept. Other games have tried to address this but only through added injury rules and the like. I like the HP system. It is not clean, but it has to be measured and managed.

Snoring Rock wrote:I believe this is explained in the AD&D PHB. HP is not the level of actual damage you receive. It is a number that may indicate the amount of luck and skill you have left before a fatal blow may take you down. A 1st level novice does not die any easier than a 10th level master.

Correct. C&C hit point system was modeled on this.

And I'm more than happy with this. I've always liked the abstract nature of what hit points represent in so far as damage/skill/luck and I've DMed them as per your explanations for years n years.

To reiterate though, Healing as it stands doesn't really convey the same philosophy.

It's still hard to rationalise why Cure Light Wounds can heal the most severe of injuries for a lowly peasant yet barely even rejuvenate an exhausted, highly trained warrior who staggers from the battlefield practically uninjured. To scale the healing spells and (natural healing for that matter) with the hit dice of the recipient seems to give the spell itself more integrity to me.. without making anything more complicated.

*light bulb appears above falrinth's head*

Unless what you're saying is that the Healing spells DO NOT restore the luck and skill a highly trained fighter relies upon to avoid getting hurt in the first place. The actual wounds only really show up in the last dozen or so hit points of a character. For those with more hit points than that, they're all representative of sheer heroism, determination and experience.. things that divine magic don't necessarily restore.. right?

I would still feel strongly about having hp that are restored due to resting scale with hit die though...

One concept I liked about 4E was how they really stressed, as has already been pointed out from earlier editions, that MOST of hit points actually represent luck and stamina, only a small portion of it is actual physical damage. Which was their whole premise for their "Healing Surge" system. They weren't necessarily healing physical damage, but getting back their luck and stamina. The proverbial "second wind".

However, I did not like Healing Surges in combat. We went through 3 modules and only once were we even concerned about going unconscious, let alone anyone dying. Granted, I read on ENWorld and other forums how people had PC death and even TPK's in the same modules, so our being a good group that plays smart definitely had an effect too. Still, a large part of that was smart use of the Healing Surge.

Anyways, how do I look at it now? First off I should probably share what I have written in my House Rules for normal healing:

NONMAGICAL Healing:
In combat you are essentially placing a "band aid". On a successful WIS based check, that only Paladins, Clerics, Druids, Rangers and Assassins can make, the recipient is only stabilized. So no bleeding out is possible unless more injury is caused. Outside of combat you must rest a full 24 hours to regain 1 HP +/- Con modifier. If you are under non magical care of a "healer", such as the aforementioned classes, or an NPC Herbalist/Healer, you regain an additional 1d4 with a successful daily check, CL= to 1 for every increment of 10 HP the injured is missing. Always a minimum of CL 1. They get an automatic +5 if they are fully equipped with a range of mosses, herbs, bandages, and such. On a Nat 20 the recipient gets back 5 HP that day. If you have a negative Con modifier this means you must rest one extra full day per point of the modifier before you can even start to regain hit points. Once you have rested those additional days your modifier is treated as "0" from then on.

The patient, if they have a Con modifier of "0" or higher, can also make a Con check to recover additional Stamina every day. The CL is as above for the Healers, including the +5 if good food and drink are available. A successful check results in a regain of 1d4+ Con modifier, but a Nat 20 has no benefit. A maximum of 1/4, or 20%, rounded down, of the characters maximum HP total can be regained this way. If you have a negative Con modifier you must rely completely on the healer.

I should also note that I define Hit Points as per the 1E DMG and PH. HP are not all just physical damage as C&C defines it. The vast majority of HP are a combination of Luck and stamina, and the loss of HP is mostly the abstract loss of that luck and Stamina due to stress and the dodging of blows and spells. So even when a Magic Missile hits you, its not necessarily hitting you, but presenting enough of a danger to cause you to lose that much of your HP. If it is ever important, your actual, physical, hit points are those you roll for first level + Con bonus +1 per level there after. After first level your Con modifier represents additional, or less, Stamina.

So I look at Magical healing as restoring ALL of the elements that make up HP, physical, luck, and Stamina. Most of which is Luck, and is what can take the most time to get back, in my opinion. So while you may have healed all of your physical injuries in a few days to a week, if your taking longer than that it is because the god or goddess of luck is fickle and frugal, and takes a while to let you get your "Luck of the Hero Adventurer" back.

So when healing spells are cast upon you, a large part of that is the deity of the cleric is channeling all your luck back into you. So its not just healing physical damage, or poisons, etc... It is restoring your Stamina and very literally your "luck" as well. As you can see, I consider Stamina and luck to be far bigger factors in your HP total than physical damage.

falrinth wrote:And I'm more than happy with this. I've always liked the abstract nature of what hit points represent in so far as damage/skill/luck and I've DMed them as per your explanations for years n years.

To reiterate though, Healing as it stands doesn't really convey the same philosophy.

It's still hard to rationalise why Cure Light Wounds can heal the most severe of injuries for a lowly peasant yet barely even rejuvenate an exhausted, highly trained warrior who staggers from the battlefield practically uninjured. To scale the healing spells and (natural healing for that matter) with the hit dice of the recipient seems to give the spell itself more integrity to me.. without making anything more complicated.

*light bulb appears above falrinth's head*

Unless what you're saying is that the Healing spells DO NOT restore the luck and skill a highly trained fighter relies upon to avoid getting hurt in the first place. The actual wounds only really show up in the last dozen or so hit points of a character. For those with more hit points than that, they're all representative of sheer heroism, determination and experience.. things that divine magic don't necessarily restore.. right?

I would still feel strongly about having hp that are restored due to resting scale with hit die though...

I was having a conversation with a fellow gamer a few years back, and he had an interesting take.

"Y'know, I look at everything in the game world - characters, monsters...heck even chairs and walls, as having 1 hit point. Anything more than that could represent their stamina or their ability to take a beating before they lost that 1 hit point and die or are destroyed." That's paraphrased, but very close.

I kind of adopt this idea, and looking back at your previous post and mine, I think this was what I was trying to convey but wasn't saying.

The wounds the lowly peasant get that almost kills him, and rushes to the church. Now, the cleric looks at the wound then thinks to himself, "Gee, these aren't the worst I've seen, but since this guy doesn't amount to much, they are probably pretty severe...the captain of the guard had the same type of wound just last month." The cleric casts cure light wounds on him and sends him on his way. To the peasant, he's been saved from certain death from the nasty wound, but in "reality" the wound was the same one someone else had come to the cleric with, and was just as easily healed.

falrinth wrote: It's still hard to rationalise why Cure Light Wounds can heal the most severe of injuries for a lowly peasant yet barely even rejuvenate an exhausted, highly trained warrior who staggers from the battlefield practically uninjured.

Well, Cure light does nothing for fatigue, lack of food, water or excursion. Pretty simple really

The way we play it is:

--in the "dungeon" (where rest and recuperation is impossible), cleric spells work as written.
--in "town", a cleric plus a night's rest results in healing back to full hp (assuming no extraordinary damage or disease).

We hand-wave how many spells it takes to heal someone in town. This sidesteps the problems of the OP, and also gets the party back to the adventure quicker.

I do something similar to Dunbruha

I let the PCs regain 1d4 HP for resting for 10 min (1 turn) after each fight.
I also allow 25% of lost HP to be regained by a night's rest anywhere, and 50% of lost HP to be regained by a night's rest in a safe, comfortable location.

This is our group's way of ensuring that not too much downtime is spent healing. It's a hand wave, and 'unrealistic', but we figure it's in keeping with the abstract nature of HP in the first place.

I have played (not DMing at the moment) that one night's rest people (and monsters) recoup all their hit points and spells unless they are reduced to below zero HP. In that case they do not heal or recover spells with out healing. If the are -1 to -3 they need a cure light wounds to begin healing, -4 to -6 a cure serious wounds, and -7 to -9 they need a cure critical wounds. At -10 they need a Raise Dead. If they try to rest in a "dungeon" then they only regain HP (HD +CON mod) and spells for one level per hour. The same goes for special abilities so a monk would gain one stun attack per hour, a paladin would gain 2HP of Lay of hands per hour and knight would gain Inspire after 1 hour and embolden after 3 hours.