Knight Question

[Lobo316]

I don't have my 4th printing rules with me, but did the Knights base attack/rate of improvment increase in the 4th printing (to match the fighter)? Or is the fighter still the only one with a BaB at level 1?

[Arduin]

Fighter is still only class with that progression.

[Treebore]

Lobo, your avatar/actor is in the new Vikings series. Which is pretty good, BTW. He is hard to spot, or at least I think so, because he has a TON of facial hair.

[Lobo316]

Lobo, your avatar/actor is in the new Vikings series. Which is pretty good, BTW. He is hard to spot, or at least I think so, because he has a TON of facial hair.

Oh well that's cool. Like the actor (loved him in 13th warrior). I've been recording them, but not watched any yet (too many other dang shows to keep up with). I've heard good things about it though.

[Lobo316]

Getting back to the knight for a moment, how does the knight stack up against the other fighter types? I know, mounted he's tough, but character's more often than not, are not mounted.

I know the knight has great "group" abilities (he can be a great boon for his allies), however, he lacks the powers and abilties of the paladin, the weapon specialziation and base attack of the fighter and hit points of the barbarian. Plus, when you consider you'd want Char to be one of his primes, physically speaking he's not going to be able to stand up to certain physical challenges like the fight or barbarian.

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat? It's almost like he's a poor mans fighter and, indeed, I've thought about granting the knight the ability to specialze in any one single melee weapon, just like a fighter. Or perhaps granting him the HD of a barbarian.

Thoughts on this?

[Fizz]

Oh well that's cool. Like the actor (loved him in 13th warrior). I've been recording them, but not watched any yet (too many other dang shows to keep up with). I've heard good things about it though.

"You can draw sounds?" Love that movie. Vladimir Kulich is the actor's name. His role in Vikings has been limited, but i'm hoping he becomes more prominant.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat? It's almost like he's a poor mans fighter and, indeed, I've thought about granting the knight the ability to specialze in any one single melee weapon, just like a fighter. Or perhaps granting him the HD of a barbarian
Thoughts on this?

I've been wondering if the Knight should have a form of Combat Dominance, maybe at a level equal to 2/3 a fighters levels. That is, the knight gains it at 6th level and improves every 6 levels thereafter. This gives him a boost in melee combat without overshadowing the fighter. Just a thought...

-Fizz

[Lobo316]

Oh well that's cool. Like the actor (loved him in 13th warrior). I've been recording them, but not watched any yet (too many other dang shows to keep up with). I've heard good things about it though.

"You can draw sounds?" Love that movie. Vladimir Kulich is the actor's name. His role in Vikings has been limited, but i'm hoping he becomes more prominant.


-Fizz

Agreed. Great, and very under rated movie and Buliwyf was one of the greatest characters. For a chieftain who said so little, he had vast impact on his people. Love to see Vladimir in more.

Anyone here read The Heroes, but Joe Abercrombie? I always imagined Wyrn looking like him, heh, heh.

[Lobo316]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat? It's almost like he's a poor mans fighter and, indeed, I've thought about granting the knight the ability to specialze in any one single melee weapon, just like a fighter. Or perhaps granting him the HD of a barbarian
Thoughts on this?

I've been wondering if the Knight should have a form of Combat Dominance, maybe at a level equal to 2/3 a fighters levels. That is, the knight gains it at 6th level and improves every 6 levels thereafter. This gives him a boost in melee combat without overshadowing the fighter. Just a thought...

-Fizz

That'd be cool. I also thought about an ability that would allow him to roll 2D20 in combat and take the higher result. Maybe usable once a day for every 4 levels of XP? Or maybe usable once per combat? I dunno, just tossing around ideas, but really wanted to get feedback first. See if anyone else has come to the same or similar conclusion.

[Arduin]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat?

No, fine as is. He is not designed to be the best martial person in the world. He is designed to be a great leader of fighter types, a better fighter than non-fighters types & a force multiplier. To make him both would negate the need for a Fighter & Barbarian class.

[Lurker]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat?

No, fine as is. He is not designed to be the best martial person in the world. He is designed to be a great leader of fighter types, a better fighter than non-fighters types & a force multiplier. To make him both would negate the need for a Fighter & Barbarian class.

Plus, and this is just from my home brew, a knight always has better arms and armor. His BTH may be 1 below a fighter, but that masterwork sword (at early levels) makes up for it. Not as good HP as a Barb, but better armor (plus again masterwork) makes him A LOT harder to hit and therefore need fewer HP.

On top of that, put him on a combat trained horse, and watch his damage skyrocket. Moreover, extra attacks from the mount itself ... He can hold his own.

Then, (and again my homebrew) a fighter has lower social status, so the town guard will be less impressed, may more harshly enforce the towns laws etc. A knight though, is superior to the local yokel guard, soooooo 'yes sir' 'no sir' two bags full!!!!

[Lobo316]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat?

No, fine as is. He is not designed to be the best martial person in the world. He is designed to be a great leader of fighter types, a better fighter than non-fighters types & a force multiplier. To make him both would negate the need for a Fighter & Barbarian class.

Plus, and this is just from my home brew, a knight always has better arms and armor. His BTH may be 1 below a fighter, but that masterwork sword (at early levels) makes up for it. Not as good HP as a Barb, but better armor (plus again masterwork) makes him A LOT harder to hit and therefore need fewer HP.

On top of that, put him on a combat trained horse, and watch his damage skyrocket. Moreover, extra attacks from the mount itself ... He can hold his own.

Then, (and again my homebrew) a fighter has lower social status, so the town guard will be less impressed, may more harshly enforce the towns laws etc. A knight though, is superior to the local yokel guard, soooooo 'yes sir' 'no sir' two bags full!!!!

Hmmmm.. you know, Lurker, that's not bad. Starting the Knight out with superior weapons/armor would do nicely to get him a small boon, and by the time everyone "catches up" (equipment wise, so to speak), the knight will likely have improved by then as well.

[Lobo316]

Is the knight fine the way he is? Or should he be granted something to make his more effective in straight up combat?

No, fine as is. He is not designed to be the best martial person in the world. He is designed to be a great leader of fighter types, a better fighter than non-fighters types & a force multiplier. To make him both would negate the need for a Fighter & Barbarian class.

Plus, and this is just from my home brew, a knight always has better arms and armor. His BTH may be 1 below a fighter, but that masterwork sword (at early levels) makes up for it. Not as good HP as a Barb, but better armor (plus again masterwork) makes him A LOT harder to hit and therefore need fewer HP.

On top of that, put him on a combat trained horse, and watch his damage skyrocket. Moreover, extra attacks from the mount itself ... He can hold his own.

Then, (and again my homebrew) a fighter has lower social status, so the town guard will be less impressed, may more harshly enforce the towns laws etc. A knight though, is superior to the local yokel guard, soooooo 'yes sir' 'no sir' two bags full!!!!

Hey Lurker,in regards to starting the knight with masterwork items, a few questions

1) Do you allow his weapon to be a +1 to hit, +1 to damage, or both?
2) Does he still have to pay the base cost for his equipment, then just treat it as masterwork, or do you just "give it to him"?
3) Does he get a masterwork shield as well, or just the armor?
4) Does any of this affect his normal starting gold?

[Arduin]

Plus, and this is just from my home brew, a knight always has better arms and armor. His BTH may be 1 below a fighter, but that masterwork sword (at early levels) makes up for it. Not as good HP as a Barb, but better armor (plus again masterwork) makes him A LOT harder to hit and therefore need fewer HP.

On top of that, put him on a combat trained horse, and watch his damage skyrocket. Moreover, extra attacks from the mount itself ... He can hold his own.

Then, (and again my homebrew) a fighter has lower social status, so the town guard will be less impressed, may more harshly enforce the towns laws etc. A knight though, is superior to the local yokel guard, soooooo 'yes sir' 'no sir' two bags full!!!!

Home brew or not, sounds very much like what was intended for the class in C&C... Nicely laid out.

[Lobo316]

Plus, and this is just from my home brew, a knight always has better arms and armor. His BTH may be 1 below a fighter, but that masterwork sword (at early levels) makes up for it. Not as good HP as a Barb, but better armor (plus again masterwork) makes him A LOT harder to hit and therefore need fewer HP.

On top of that, put him on a combat trained horse, and watch his damage skyrocket. Moreover, extra attacks from the mount itself ... He can hold his own.

Then, (and again my homebrew) a fighter has lower social status, so the town guard will be less impressed, may more harshly enforce the towns laws etc. A knight though, is superior to the local yokel guard, soooooo 'yes sir' 'no sir' two bags full!!!!

Home brew or not, sounds very much like what was intended for the class in C&C... Nicely laid out.

Agreed. Very nice.

[Fizz]

No, fine as is. He is not designed to be the best martial person in the world. He is designed to be a great leader of fighter types, a better fighter than non-fighters types & a force multiplier. To make him both would negate the need for a Fighter & Barbarian class.

Overall, yes. As with all classes, the power / usefulness of the class is partly determined by the nature of the adventure. For example, if it's set entirely inside a city, then the ranger isn't as potent. Likewise, if the adventure takes place entirely in a dungeon with small scale battles, then the knight won't get to make use of any of his abilities.

But as you say, get the knight on the open battlefield with hundreds / thousands of soldiers and then he shines.

So i say any custom tweaks to a class have to keep the the setting / adventure types in mind.


-Fizz

[Lurker]

Hey Lurker,in regards to starting the knight with masterwork items, a few questions

1) Do you allow his weapon to be a +1 to hit, +1 to damage, or both?
2) Does he still have to pay the base cost for his equipment, then just treat it as masterwork, or do you just "give it to him"?
3) Does he get a masterwork shield as well, or just the armor?
4) Does any of this affect his normal starting gold?

First, Lobo & Arduin Glad you like my ideas.

Ok, for the questions, 1 2 & 4 are a resounding “it depends” …

I put a lot of stock in the player’s background story. So the better the story (in depth, having LOTS of hooks for me to work with, original, etc) the more benefits they get. Also, I match the benefits to the character & the story – a player that makes a knight with a more brutish mindset, I’d at least make it the +1 to damage, but if he is more skilled and refined the it would be on the to hit. Now if it is a poorly thought out or shake and bake character, then he gets whatever starting gold he rolls and maybe 1 of them will be a masterwork item at 2-3 times the normal cost.

A good for instance of the background, back in the day, I had a player that made his knight (cavalier) the bastard son of the bishop. The bishop was the younger son of a very influential duke. His mother was the middle daughter of a VERY wealthy merchant. The player went out of his way to make it clear he tried to live up to his father’s family name (despite not being given the name) but also honor his other grandfather, but never asking for a gift from either. This of course led them to appreciate him (vs their other grand children who were grasping, whiney, lazy etc etc etc). With that, he ‘earned’ max starting gold and on top of that, a couple of very well made master work ( +1 to both hit and damage) items. It goes without saying he was expected to bring glory to his father's family, at times act as a go between the merchants and the nobles, and act as a guard leader on important merchant trips.

His best friend was a knight from a rustic (poor) family, but had a fey mother (he never knew here and didn’t figure it out until later in the campaign – he gave me a free hand in that part of his character after saying his mother was not around & he never knew her). His armor was master work (still +1) but a good 10-15 years old (so he look less impressive & had less effect on other nobles) and instead of having a sword, his preferred weapon was a rider’s axe (still +1, but much cheaper than the sword). For being fey blooded, he was at a + when dealing with elves, had a + to his beauty, and I can’t remember what his item tied back to the fey (like I said back in the day, so it has been a while)

As for the MW shield, I’d say more likely it would be armor. (Oh yeah, got to mention, I keep my home brew technology level at around 800-1000AD level, so no full plate)

[Treebore]

I've played a Knight a couple of times. Once up to 7th, and then another up to 8th.

As long as he has a good CHA score that gives preferably a +2 or +3 modifier, the Knight is very useful in at least one battle per day.

The one thing I have been considering is allowing the Knight to use his abilities more often in a 24 hour period. I cannot decide on either simply allowing each to be used once per battle/encounter, or actually go through the motions of coming up with some fixed number based on level, or CHA modifier, both, or some other thing.

Looking at the spells a cleric can potentially cast to give similar bonus', I am thinking of allowing an additional use of Inspire very 2 levels after the first, so levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. With probably a similar progression for the other abilities as they are gained.

[Rigon]

I've played a Knight a couple of times. Once up to 7th, and then another up to 8th.

As long as he has a good CHA score that gives preferably a +2 or +3 modifier, the Knight is very useful in at least one battle per day.

The one thing I have been considering is allowing the Knight to use his abilities more often in a 24 hour period. I cannot decide on either simply allowing each to be used once per battle/encounter, or actually go through the motions of coming up with some fixed number based on level, or CHA modifier, both, or some other thing.

Looking at the spells a cleric can potentially cast to give similar bonus', I am thinking of allowing an additional use of Inspire very 2 levels after the first, so levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. With probably a similar progression for the other abilities as they are gained.

That's not a bad idear. I may have to steal that and tinker with it.

R-

[Rigon]

I done did stoled Tree's idea.

Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.

R-

[Lobo316]

I done did stoled Tree's idea.

Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.

R-

I like this, but my only problem with it is that it puts to much emphasis on attributes, and that potentailly leads to power building (I "need" to have X Char to have an effective Knight, instead of just making a Knight). If I was to do anything, I'd just make it that the knight gains another use of these abilities at every 4th level. Or just put a fixed amount on them (2x a day).

[Lurker]

The one thing I have been considering is allowing the Knight to use his abilities more often in a 24 hour period. I cannot decide on either simply allowing each to be used once per battle/encounter, or actually go through the motions of coming up with some fixed number based on level, or CHA modifier, both, or some other thing.

Looking at the spells a cleric can potentially cast to give similar bonus', I am thinking of allowing an additional use of Inspire very 2 levels after the first, so levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. With probably a similar progression for the other abilities as they are gained.

I done did stoled Tree's idea.

Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.

R-

I like those ideas, would a mix of those be toooooo powerful? I like Cha having an effect (makes it worth having a prime in CHA) but with all skills, experience makes you more proficient and effective at the skill. So they should be able to use it more often.

Let see, a knight with a 16 CHA (+2) at 5th level would be able to Inspire 5x a day, Embolden 4x a day, and Demoralize 3x a day. That may be a bit high, but considering they would only last 5 rounds (50 seconds total) it may not be too unbalancing.

[Rigon]

The one thing I have been considering is allowing the Knight to use his abilities more often in a 24 hour period. I cannot decide on either simply allowing each to be used once per battle/encounter, or actually go through the motions of coming up with some fixed number based on level, or CHA modifier, both, or some other thing.

Looking at the spells a cleric can potentially cast to give similar bonus', I am thinking of allowing an additional use of Inspire very 2 levels after the first, so levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. With probably a similar progression for the other abilities as they are gained.

I done did stoled Tree's idea.

Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.

R-

I like those ideas, would a mix of those be toooooo powerful? I like Cha having an effect (makes it worth having a prime in CHA) but with all skills, experience makes you more proficient and effective at the skill. So they should be able to use it more often.

Let see, a knight with a 16 CHA (+2) at 5th level would be able to Inspire 5x a day, Embolden 4x a day, and Demoralize 3x a day. That may be a bit high, but considering they would only last 5 rounds (50 seconds total) it may not be too unbalancing.

I could see doing it that way, but I'm gonna stick with my way for now.

R-

[Treebore]

I done did stoled Tree's idea.

Inspire: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Embolden: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.
Demoralize: This ability can be used once plus the knight's Cha bonus per day.

R-

I like this, but my only problem with it is that it puts to much emphasis on attributes, and that potentailly leads to power building (I "need" to have X Char to have an effective Knight, instead of just making a Knight). If I was to do anything, I'd just make it that the knight gains another use of these abilities at every 4th level. Or just put a fixed amount on them (2x a day).

True, but the power already makes it completely dependent on the attribute as written. So if you do not have a 13 or better CHA, Inspire is completely useless to the Knight.
I think that should be rewritten to giving a base of +1 for any Knight, with the CHA bonus adding, but not subtracting, to/from that.

[Treebore]

For the record, I actually am leaning towards this:

"Looking at the spells a cleric can potentially cast to give similar bonus', I am thinking of allowing an additional use of Inspire very 2 levels after the first, so levels 1, 3, 5, 7 and so on. With probably a similar progression for the other abilities as they are gained."

I don't really like making anything solely dependent on attribute scores, because that just more strongly encourages min/maxing.

[zombiehands]

I have said this before on the forums, but what I do is a allow the knight to use one ability when he charges. Most players fear charging because of pole arms and the -4 AC, even without their horses they are pretty good.

I have to admit though I am not a huge fan of the fighter in C&C, I prefer it was more like AD&D pre specialization. A non alignment restricted class that is weaker then the subclasses, so that if the subclasses shift alignments they become normal fighters.

[Treebore]

I have said this before on the forums, but what I do is a allow the knight to use one ability when he charges. Most players fear charging because of pole arms and the -4 AC, even without their horses they are pretty good.

I have to admit though I am not a huge fan of the fighter in C&C, I prefer it was more like AD&D pre specialization. A non alignment restricted class that is weaker then the subclasses, so that if the subclasses shift alignments they become normal fighters.

When you did that you lost all your old class special abilities and did not pick up anything the fighter had. So no Weapon Specialization or anything else. Total suckage.

[zombiehands]

There was no weapon specialization in the PHB. Fighters did not have anythings Rangers and Paladins did not (well fighters had d10 rather than d8 HD).