Tripping?

[Dristram]

Are there specific rules somewhere on tripping? Overbearing mentions that when the person is knocked down, they stay down for the round. Under wolves, tripping causes opponents to lose the next initiative.

I'm confused about a situation though. Once an opponent is prone for some reason, if they still haven't gone in the initiative, can't they just stand up on their turn? And if they do, can they make an attack? If there are no specific rules on tripping in the game, I'll have to come up with my own house rules.

My house rule would be, if you get tripped or knocked prone somehow, you loose your action for the round. And in the case of the wolf tripping, you can stand up at the end of the following round. In the case of overbearing, you can stand on your initiative on the next round.

[Nelzie]

Here's my ruling.

A Tripping action that doesn't involve overbearing runs in the following fashion:

The PC must first make a succesful "To Hit"

Then the PC must make a SIEGE Engine check. This can be done either via STR or DEX, depending upon how the player describes the tripping action. Is it a hard kick to the legs, coupled with a shove? That's a STR check. Is it a sly tripping up of the opponent using some fancy footwork? DEX is the check.

The CL modifier is the Hit Dice of the target to be tripped.

The player can add his/her level if of a "Fighting" class, this list includes the following: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Knight, Bard, Rogue, Assassin. The stat modifier may also be added to the roll as well.

If succesful, the target is knocked to the ground.

If the target has yet to go, to bad. All actions are lost. The target cannot stand in this round, nor can the target make an attack.

The target can stand in the next round and make a half move, but that's it. That half move can be retreating, making an attack or advancing. This can only be done at the target's turn in the sequence of the new round.

Anyway, that's how I do it and it works out fine. Of course, my blasted players have been lucky enough to never be tripped...
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[Nagisawa Takumi]

I haven't gotten more than a cursory chance to look at the books, but one thing I've always wanted to do in a game is to knock down someone with say, a sword.

If I wanted to clock someone in the knee to knock them down, who would one go about it?

[Treebore]

I cheated. I use the tripping rules from the 3E SRD that is free on line.

[gideon_thorne]

I'd asign a 'called shot' modifier to the knee and if the attacker hits the person fall down and go boom.
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Peter Bradley

[Nelzie]

Nagisawa Takumi wrote:
I haven't gotten more than a cursory chance to look at the books, but one thing I've always wanted to do in a game is to knock down someone with say, a sword.

If I wanted to clock someone in the knee to knock them down, who would one go about it?

I would do a standard to hit roll and couple that with the SIEGE check from above, based upon strength. The sword would do half damage and that would be subdual damage as well. So, the worst that would happen is someone gets bruised and knocked out, if dropped below zero hit points by the attack.

I might even add a point or two to the SIEGE Challenge Level, above what I suggested in my previous post, to simulate the difficulty in hitting the person just so.
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[Omote]

I'm surprised this has never come up in any of my games that I can remember. Hmm, maybe I would use a method like this:

Attack roll vs. 15+DEX+Size diff (this is the opponents "trip AC).

This method mimics other unarmed combat manuevers, but is slightly different because it uses DEX instead of STR.

I think I'll use this method.

.......................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Dristram]

Omote wrote:
Hmm, maybe I would use a method like this:

Attack roll vs. 15+DEX+Size diff (this is the opponents "trip AC).

This method mimics other unarmed combat manuevers, but is slightly different because it uses DEX instead of STR.

I was thinking similarly. I generally just use the overbearing rule for tripping since the result is the same. But I also want to impliment a trip maneuver for when using a weapon meant to trip such as a pole arm. For that I would probably simply have the attacker hit a touch AC and the defender make a dexterity attribute check to not fall over similar to the wolf tripping rule.

[cleaverthepit]

This would be covered in the overbearing rules. However, as overbearing covers a lot of actions I think it fair to say that variations on the rule should be made.

I like Omote's variation. I think I might make a house rule like this.

Attacker rolls d20 and adds dex. Defender's armor class is 15 plus dex. a successful hit indicates the defender is tripped and falls prone.

The defenders ac is modified by size and the number of legs it has. for each leg more than 2 the defender recieves a +2 to ac. So a 4 legged creature gets to add +4.

Now, the question is, is the tripping maneuvre more a function of dexterity or of strength for defender or attacker.

Not sure but i think one could make an argument either way.

Once prone a -5 ac penalty is in effect.

Typically I just rule that the character can get up the next round as their action and no longer be under the ac penalty. However, i think i might add the rule such that the player must decide whether they are just going to get up the next round be what may or try to defend themselves from the ground and slowly get up. In the former case (just getting up) the character is considered prone and defenseless and recieves a -10 penalty to ac but they do successfully get up the next round. while in the latter case they must make a successful dex check to get up but only suffer a -5 penalty while doing so.

tripping can make for nice dramatic play at times and is a great tactical maneuver.

davis

[Omote]

cleaverthepit wrote:
Now, the question is, is the tripping maneuvre more a function of dexterity or of strength for defender or attacker.

Not sure but i think one could make an argument either way.

Yeah, the argument can go either way, but as a pure mechanical function, I'd say use DEX because STR is factored into the other unnarmed combat manuevers. It gives a bit of different to the acts of overbearing vs tripping.

As for the penalties for being prone... hmm. This isn;t covered anywehre else in the PHB? I can't remember.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[cleaverthepit]

prone penalties are listed in combat modifiers chart

prone -5 to ac

prone and defenseless -10 to ac

[miller6]

I use trip=attacker makes a strength check (with stregth bonus and prime modifers if applicable) verusus opponents dex. If they make it, the target is tripped and suffers a -2 to hit on their next action and all opponents are +2 to hit the fallen target.

IMHO tripping a target assumes they weren't prepared, otherwise it's overbearing. Thus in my campaign tripping a target isn't all that difficult to do.

Also, tripped should not be considered prone since that generally refers to a helpless or immobile target. Tripped merely means no longer on their feet and thus at a disadvantage.

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

[serleran]

Some classes, ie, monk, should never suffer penalties for being "prone" and should be able to continue attacking and whatnot without issue, making "tripping" them rather pointless.

[Ghul]

Quote:
Typically I just rule that the character can get up the next round as their action and no longer be under the ac penalty. However, i think i might add the rule such that the player must decide whether they are just going to get up the next round be what may or try to defend themselves from the ground and slowly get up. In the former case (just getting up) the character is considered prone and defenseless and recieves a -10 penalty to ac but they do successfully get up the next round. while in the latter case they must make a successful dex check to get up but only suffer a -5 penalty while doing so.

I agree with the method quoted by Omote above and further elaborated by cleaver, but this last part I disagree with. I would not penalize the combatant to the point where their entire action is getting up. Inititiative would be key in this situation (in my game).

If the character is tripped, I would rule that they could get up on their turn and attack again, on their initiative. So, if they go on a 10, well, they pop right back from the trip and start swinging. If they don't go until a 2, well, they are prone (-5) on the ground until they get up.

The reason why I would allow the character to attack is because I would consider the getting up their 1/2 movement, then attack, just like in standard combat. Or if they did not want to attack and just move, the getting up would still account for 1/2 their movement.

Now, as far as defenseless goes (-10), I would rule that this only occurs if the trip is a surprise action. You're hiding in the bush and the orc is barrel-assing down the path. You stick out your leg, succeed in the trip and the orc goes down hard. Depending on the circumstances I may have the orc make a dex save to see if he can stop himself from smashing his fool head. If he fails the save, he may be defenseless for quite a while.

That's my 2 coppers.

--Ghul

[Jynx]

Well... I've been running an adventure filled with tripping and so this is how I've house ruled it so far... somewhat modified from the way I did it to take in some ideas in this thread...

TRIPPING...

The attacker rolls a d20 and adds his DEX modifier. Defender's armor class is 15 plus his DEX modifier. a successful hit indicates the defender is tripped. The defender loses his attack on the next round while he tries to get up. A DEX check (rolling under your DEX or fail - NOTE: 20 is a fail!) is required to get up at the end of the next round. The defender can choose not to get up and do some other action such as trip the attacker, or just alll out defend. Nimble classes like the monk can not be tripped, and rogues or characters with a DEX as a Prime do not need to make a DEX check to get up. Only Rogues or swashbuckler type characters can attempt to attack with approprite penalties, while on the ground.

[Dristram]

Ghul wrote:
If the character is tripped, I would rule that they could get up on their turn and attack again, on their initiative. So, if they go on a 10, well, they pop right back from the trip and start swinging. If they don't go until a 2, well, they are prone (-5) on the ground until they get up.

FYI this is about how I was ruling it but it caused problems. Because there are no AoO's for getting up, no cool Feat like Improved Initiative, and no multiples of attacks, tripping is not an effective maneuver. The only way it's cool is when a party is ganged up on a single opponent. Otherwise, in one on one combat, it's practically useless because being prone rarely comes into play. There has to be some way for the attacker to benefit from his trip attempt.

When trying to figure out the reason for getting an opponent prone, I noticed the following in regards to the opponent.

Overbearing: The opponent is knocked prone for the remainder of the round.

Wolf's Trip: The opponent is knocked down automatically losing initiative the next round.

They're both vague, but definitely allow for an attacker to potentially benefit from getting his opponent prone.

[Ghul]

Dristram--

I don't think we're on the same page. Allow me to explain:

On round 1. If a character goes on a 7 and trips the monster that was supposed to go on a 4, that monster is prone until he goes on the next round of initiaitive.

On round 2. If the monster goes on a 5, he will remain prone until that time. This gives the characters a chance of getting that +5 until that time arrives, but it's not guaranteed in the instance that the characters roll poorly.

That's how I'd play it. Hope that helps.

--Ghul

[Dristram]

Oh, that's the same as me.

[miller6]

serleran wrote:
Some classes, ie, monk, should never suffer penalties for being "prone" and should be able to continue attacking and whatnot without issue, making "tripping" them rather pointless.

Are you referring to "instant stand" ala Oriental Adventures?

Brian Miller
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"The adventure continues"

[serleran]

Yes and no. I'm refering to acrobatic/martial art maneuvers which render "prone" moot, such as the common "kip up" or even sweeping, not mentioning several hand techniques and other defensive or offensive tactics developed by numerous martial arts. Hell, some of them use such strategies as integral elements... like monkey style kung fu.

[Ghul]

serleran wrote:
Yes and no. I'm refering to acrobatic/martial art maneuvers which render "prone" moot, such as the common "kip up" or even sweeping, not mentioning several hand techniques and other defensive or offensive tactics developed by numerous martial arts. Hell, some of them use such strategies as integral elements... like monkey style kung fu.

Good call. I like it.

--Ghul

[cleaverthepit]

Upon reflection, I think I will make tripping a function of dexterity. I noticed a problem in the rules also. It is, as written, easier for an orc to grab and hold a tenth level fighter in plate mail and shield that it is to hit him. Does that make sense.

As with OADD the grappling rules don't fall into the regular arena of melee rules and create problems of their own. And this appears to be one similar to the one in OADD. hmmm

thoughts -am i reading my own rules wrong?

davis

[Ghul]

cleaverthepit wrote:
Upon reflection, I think I will make tripping a function of dexterity. I noticed a problem in the rules also. It is, as written, easier for an orc to grab and hold a tenth level fighter in plate mail and shield that it is to hit him. Does that make sense.

As with OADD the grappling rules don't fall into the regular arena of melee rules and create problems of their own. And this appears to be one similar to the one in OADD. hmmm

thoughts -am i reading my own rules wrong?

davis

You are reading them right. PHB states: "...armor has little effect on the capacity to defend against this type of attack..."

So, the unarmed combat rules do favor the little guy as the scales tip, because the orc only has to hit that AC 15. The defender gets to bump that AC 15 for strength + dex bonuses. So if your 10th level fighter has 11 dex and 15 strength, his AC is 16 vs the grapple, and that's it. In normal combat, he would have an AC 18 for the plate and shield.

The part I don't like is the 10th level against the 1 HD orc. Such a veteren warrior should not be subject to this indignity! What if level was applied to the defender's AC and the attackers to-hit roll? Yeah, it turns more into 3e with all the modifiers but in the above example, you'd have:

1HD Orc tries to grapple 10 HD fighter in plate and shield. The Orc has to hit an AC 26 (AC 15 + 10 + 1). And so the lowly orc cannot put the 10th level warrior in a full-nelson, unless (in my game) he rolled a crit.

Another thing to consider: if you use Gary's Castle Zagyg secondary skills rules, the Bullying Ability gives the grappler a +2 bonus per level of the skill purchased.

--Ghul

[serleran]

Easiest way to solve such problems is to have the check (or attack roll) against the BtH (unmodified) of the defender. The one exception would be monks, as I said before, where such tactics should be useless. So, the orc wants to trip a 10th level fighter. The difficulty is 10 (BtH of a level 10 fighter.) Orcs have Prime P saves, but are low HD... so the odds of success are low. Make it easier for the very small, though, and give them a bonus per additional attackers: ie, 4 kobolds swarm a dwarf fighter (level 8); one check is made, against a Dex-save difficulty 8, but the kobolds get +12 for 4 of them (+3 per kobold, but only in tandem attacks.) Odds are good the dwarf goes down.

Alternatively, should one decide it is warranted, a Dex save to resist the trip might be granted. This would imply the character simply needs to be struck (normal attack resolution), but the difficulty is then the BtH of the attacker, plus situational. So, a 3rd level rogue tripped by a wolf gets struck, but the wolf's relatively low HD makes for an easy save, so the rogue stands; the non-Dex Fighter, though, is in for a fall...

As you can tell, the above is two methods of using the same thing. Doing it another way, in my opinion, adds too much complexity.

[Treebore]

I just do it as a SIEGE check, like I do all my "Feat-like actions". Beat the TN+HD of your opponent and you succeed. Plus I agree this is much more of a dexterity thing.

Plus I even do it this way for Monks. Their HD is a direct reflection of their experience/training and their ability to correctly react to the situations of the combat. ITs one thing to demonstrate techniques in a dojo, a whole different game on a field of battle.

If you feel they have to have some kind of extra edge I could see their modifier to their AC being used for the TN. Even 1/2 of their level being added as an additional "situational" modifier to the final TN.

Maybe even go so far as to write it up as an "in house" class ability. Or optional rule in the CK book.

[Ghul]

I like the idea of non-weapon combat using SIEGE. It seems to make bettere sense than the rules as stated in the PHB, and the possible solution I listed above, especially the part about using the BtH as the difficulty modifier, as it should be far more difficult to trip a 10th level fighter than a 10th level wizard. Good call, Serl.

I also like the simple dex save for certain situations. A goblin is running down the hall. The fighter knows the goblin is coming. As soon as the goblin rounds the corner, the fighter sticks his leg out. I like a dex save for the goblin in this situation. Serl, another good call. You're on a roll!
--Ghul

[miller6]

cleaverthepit wrote:
Upon reflection, I think I will make tripping a function of dexterity. I noticed a problem in the rules also. It is, as written, easier for an orc to grab and hold a tenth level fighter in plate mail and shield that it is to hit him. Does that make sense.

As with OADD the grappling rules don't fall into the regular arena of melee rules and create problems of their own. And this appears to be one similar to the one in OADD. hmmm

thoughts -am i reading my own rules wrong?

davis

The difference in grabbing versus attacking can be sumarized simply as a damage versus non-damaging attack. I'd rule that a grab causes no damage but may modify other attempts to hit, or may make another opponent's attack easier, whereas an attack causes direct damage which contributes more directly towards the defeat of the opponent.

It's a tactical issue really. Which is better depends on how many party members have yet to go that round.

Brian Miller
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