Troll Lord Games

Ok, so I was converting a PF module for use in C&C and found there was a lot of magic items just laying a round. I nixed most of them. I left the potions and scrolls in. I like expendable magic. I came across a suit of Master Work plate mail. I just made it Expert Crafted, gave it a +1 and moved on....

Then I got to thinking. The only difference between Expert Crafted and magic was the magic. So the save vs. destruction is better and the it helps give a +1 vs. incorporeal creatures o top of the obvious +1 to AC. A touch AC of 10 (+ dex. Mod.) and then add in the +1 for the magic and, that is not exactly wonderful when facing a wraith anyway.

So I thought of giving Expert Crafted armor a 1DR instead. So no +1 but DR. I can give DR to magic armor to the tune of 1DR per +. So +3 would give +3 to AC and 3DR. That gives me a base to the EC armor, and keeps it different from magic.

Anyone else do this? Am I screwing up here? I do not like fiddling with rules but I want there to be a bit more difference between EC and magic armor. I ran into this when reviewing the weapons list and the abilities and special things they let you do. I made a new list and it works much better for our group and it makes sense too!

I have reduced the cost of creating expert armors to the base price plus 50% and magic armors weigh 50% less than regular/expert armors. Not a major change in how things function, but enough of a difference to make magic armors more valued.

R-

Snoring Rock wrote:So I thought of giving Expert Crafted armor a 1DR instead. So no +1 but DR. I can give DR to magic armor to the tune of 1DR per +. So +3 would give +3 to AC and 3DR. That gives me a base to the EC armor, and keeps it different from magic.

Anyone else do this? Am I screwing up here?

Sounds fine but, since the expert armour would be less effective, I'd slash its price. Other than that I see no huge problems.

Snoring Rock wrote:So I thought of giving Expert Crafted armor a 1DR instead. So no +1 but DR. I can give DR to magic armor to the tune of 1DR per +. So +3 would give +3 to AC and 3DR. That gives me a base to the EC armor, and keeps it different from magic.

What do you mean Dr I have yet to come across this acronym and am lost.....

HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dracyian wrote:

Snoring Rock wrote:So I thought of giving Expert Crafted armor a 1DR instead. So no +1 but DR. I can give DR to magic armor to the tune of 1DR per +. So +3 would give +3 to AC and 3DR. That gives me a base to the EC armor, and keeps it different from magic.

What do you mean Dr I have yet to come across this acronym and am lost.....

HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damage reduction = DR.

R-

Dracyian wrote:

Snoring Rock wrote:So I thought of giving Expert Crafted armor a 1DR instead. So no +1 but DR. I can give DR to magic armor to the tune of 1DR per +. So +3 would give +3 to AC and 3DR. That gives me a base to the EC armor, and keeps it different from magic.

What do you mean Dr I have yet to come across this acronym and am lost.....

HELP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally from D&D 3.x I think. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adven ... uction.htm

I developed different "qualities" for each of the types of equipment so that, if I wanted, I could remove magic and yet keep expertly crafted items different.

I avoid DR because most characters do not deal a ton of damage as it is, and combat lasts a decent amount of time as is. DR will increase how long combats last. So I don't add DR rules. .

Treebore wrote:I avoid DR because most characters do not deal a ton of damage as it is, and combat lasts a decent amount of time as is. DR will increase how long combats last. So I don't add DR rules. .

One neat thing about a DR of 1 or 2 for high end plate armour is that peasants throwing rocks & such (DMG 1-2) does nothing. It can be a flavor thing. But, other than that it isn't super useful.

Slightly off-topic -- there are two types of expert crafted armor in the PHB; +1 AC and 1DR. We'll call this "expert" and "greater expert" armor. The term "greater expert craft" is attributed to Casey's Cristofferson's City of Eskandia.

Anyway, do you let the bonuses of expert items and magic items stack? Why?

Omote wrote:
Anyway, do you let the bonuses of expert items and magic items stack?

Nope

Why?

~O

Omote wrote:Slightly off-topic -- there are two types of expert crafted armor in the PHB; +1 AC and 1DR. We'll call this "expert" and "greater expert" armor. The term "greater expert craft" is attributed to Casey's Cristofferson's City of Eskandia.

Anyway, do you let the bonuses of expert items and magic items stack? Why?

No, because expertly crafted items are just that, expertly craft. The bonus they receive is mundane. Magical items are magical. In my games, I do not require magic items to be made from expertly crafted items. Any junky old item could be enchanted if someone wants it to be. That way magic items can have a little character without changing power levels and maybe have an adventure seed or two in the back story of the item. Now, that doesn't mean that all magic items are made from junk, but I don't exclude them either.

R-

Could you have greater expert crafted items that impart a mundane 1DR and then have them magical too?

~O

Omote wrote:Why?

~O

Because the functionality is different for magical & non-magical pluses. (I am talking weapons here) Now, that being said, in my game expert armour does stack but I don't call it +2 in that case. Rather, I call it +1 and the "base AC" is better.

Omote wrote:Could you have greater expert crafted items that impart a mundane 1DR and then have them magical too?

~O

Yes, you could. But I don't use DR in my games. If I allowed "greater expert crafted" armor, I'd more than likely give it a mundane +2 to AC. But, again, I don't have that level of craftmanship in my games.

R-

Arduin wrote:

Omote wrote:Why?

~O

Because the functionality is different for magical & non-magical pluses. (I am talking weapons here) Now, that being said, in my game expert armour does stack but I don't call it +2 in that case. Rather, I call it +1 and the "base AC" is better.

That is an interesting take on expert items...

R-

Rigon wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Omote wrote:Why?

~O

Because the functionality is different for magical & non-magical pluses. (I am talking weapons here) Now, that being said, in my game expert armour does stack but I don't call it +2 in that case. Rather, I call it +1 and the "base AC" is better.

That is an interesting take on expert items...

R-

Well, magic pluses in my game offer additional stuff. Ability to hit certain creatures. Mundane expert items don't gain that ability. For magic armour it adds the plus against touch attacks & various attack forms (like from incorporeal creatures). So, it isn't a different take on expert items, from a mechanical viewpoint anyway...

Expert crafted and greater expert craft items play a much more significant role in my games than probably most. I tend to limit the amount of magical armor and weapons in my campaigns, in favor of more "mundane" craftsmenship bonuses. Players tend to like this too.

That being said, I'm glad to see both of you hit on topics I find important to the C&C game. First off, I love having piece of crap, banged up (not expert craft), but magical items. For example, a suit of ancient plate mail armor that was forged quickly in secret by the slaves of Maltes Darten. However, that standard plate mail armor was enchanted by the great wizard Falcon Crest for the Lord of Slaves, Silverspoon. Mundane, but magicked.

Then you have the exquisite coat of plates crafted by the caring hand of Cornrow Willie, the master of leathers in Port Clinton. The masterful armor is crafted in such a way that it would impart a masterful +1 to AC as well as the supple, yet sturdy yak hide granting 1DR! After seeing such perfect coat of plate, the king of Port Clinton summons for the Master Wizard Pennteller to enchant this perfect coat of plate with magical protections that even Cornrow Willie could not provide. And there you have, magical, greater expert craft armor.

~O

I was thinking that EC armor would impart DR1. Then if given magic properties, the armor would give +1 to AC and DR1. If it was just standard armor and it was imbued with magic, then it would just be +1 AC, no DR. I am not comfortable with giving +1 to EC armor that has no magic properties. I can get EC crafted full plate (BASE +8) for 10,000 gold that gives +1 (TOTAL of +9). Or I can get +1 magic armor for 11,000 gold that gives the same bonus. The magic is hard to damage and imparts +1 vs. incorporeal monsters. Is that the extra 1000 gold in value? Or if I get full plate EC (1000 x 10= 10,000) and then imbue it with magic (another 1000), the price goes to ?

I do not have my book here but if armor is 10X the base price for EC and then 1000 for +1 to imbue then 11,000 is correct. Using that logic, I can buy full chain (BASE +6) make it EC and give it +3 for a grand total of 11,300 gold. I end up with +1 more that full plate for just 300 more.

So, the DR thing for EC armor came to mind. The rest of the value of magic vs. EC and the actual value in game +1 vs. magic +1 just is off a bit.

Snoring Rock wrote: I do not have my book here but if armor is 10X the base price for EC and then 1000 for +1 to imbue then 11,000 is correct. Using that logic, I can buy full chain (BASE +6) make it EC and give it +3 for a grand total of 11,300 gold. I end up with +1 more that full plate for just 300 more.

You are correct. The rule is 10X the cost. I tossed that rule out as it is beyond ridiculous. I changed it to a more realistic 3X. You can go 10X if you want precious metal, enamel, engraving and the like. That is for ceremonial armour worn by royalty to show status and to "one up" other people of your station...

The rule for magic item cost is to add the cost of the armor or weapon. So if you require Expert quality items for making magic, you add the cost of expert to the cost of magic. Which is what I do, so I house ruled the cost of Expert to be a little cheaper, and a LOT cheaper in the case of Plate and Full Plate.

Arduin wrote:

Snoring Rock wrote: I do not have my book here but if armor is 10X the base price for EC and then 1000 for +1 to imbue then 11,000 is correct. Using that logic, I can buy full chain (BASE +6) make it EC and give it +3 for a grand total of 11,300 gold. I end up with +1 more that full plate for just 300 more.

You are correct. The rule is 10X the cost. I tossed that rule out as it is beyond ridiculous. I changed it to a more realistic 3X. You can go 10X if you want precious metal, enamel, engraving and the like. That is for ceremonial armour worn by royalty to show status and to "one up" other people of your station...

I went with the base price + 50% of the base price. Seems to work out for my games.

R-

I don't let Expert add with magic because I carried the rule over from 3E, where their Masterwork does not stack with magic. This is also because I changed the cost of Expert to be considerably cheaper in the case of Plate and Full Plate. If I kept it all at x10 I'd probably allow them to stack.

Here are my house rules about the cost of Expert. I also included my house rules for bonus stacking, because eventually your going to want to have them. They are a combo of 1E and 3E guidelines.

Armor stacking. Fighter type stuff stacks, so shields and Armor. Mage stuff type stacks, so bracers, Staff of the Magi, rings, and cloaks stack. Fighter stuff never stacks with mage stuff. Now stuff that gives some kind of other bonus, such as Luck, Natural Armor, or Divine in the same manner as Prayer or Protection from Evil, does stack with all the others.

Bonus of similar items do not stack. So rings or cloaks do not stack with themselves. IE a Ring +2 does not stack with a ring +3, only the +3 counts.

EXPERT/MASTERWORK ITEMS:

Each bonus (to hit or damage, they are counted separately) costs 250 GP. Same goes for making bows STR adjusted. Weapons and armor are limited to only a +1. So a sword with +1 to hit and damage will cost an additional 500 GP, and add two weeks to construction times when solicited in game. Bows are limited to +3 STR adjustments, and to have +3 to Dam would cost 750 additional gold above base. However bows can still be "expert", so you can pay 500 go to get an "expert" +1 to hit and damage. You can then add STR modifiers to damage only for 250 gp per bonus point. To reiterate, each +1 adds a week to construction times. So a +3 bow would take 6 additional weeks to make.

Rigon wrote:

Arduin wrote: I tossed that rule out as it is beyond ridiculous. I changed it to a more realistic 3X. You can go 10X if you want precious metal, enamel, engraving and the like. That is for ceremonial armour worn by royalty to show status and to "one up" other people of your station...

I went with the base price + 50% of the base price. Seems to work out for my games.

R-

That should work as well from my exp.

Half of the cost is in finding and convincing an expert to fulfill the request, assuming boom town economy. However, I usually go with 1d4+2x base, and the seeker must provide the material.

I differentiate magic and crafted armour by using damage to the armour. Crafted can get beat-up and if not repaired could lose its bonus, magic armour doesn't.

I usually like running worlds that magic items are kind of rare giving them more meaning, like a grand history etc. So a crafted armour would be worth getting.

As far as cost goes, it is really dependent on the world/area that the characters are in. A richer world/area would have many craftsmen which would make the cost lower, a poorer world/area would have less craftsmen thus the cost would be more.

Sir Ironside wrote:I differentiate magic and crafted armour by using damage to the armour. Crafted can get beat-up and if not repaired could lose its bonus, magic armour doesn't.

I usually like running worlds that magic items are kind of rare giving them more meaning, like a grand history etc. So a crafted armour would be worth getting.

As far as cost goes, it is really dependent on the world/area that the characters are in. A richer world/area would have many craftsmen which would make the cost lower, a poorer world/area would have less craftsmen thus the cost would be more.

+1

Personally, I am not a fan of the idea of "Magical" weapons. Sure they have there place, but not in my campaigns (with exceptions of course). I use +1 weapons as expert weapons, +2 as weapons crafted from Adamantine and +3 as weapons crafted from Mithril. The bonuses only apply to damage. For armor I use the +X bonus as a DR code. So +1 armor doesn't increase AC but awards you a DR value. +1 armor awards DR 1 (expert armor), +2 awards DR 2 (adamantine armor) and +3 awards DR 3 (Mithril). I don't like to go beyond 3 as a personal preference.