Troll Lord Games

I need some help understand the intent of the Beauty attribute and how it is supposed to work? Particularly the last couple paragraphs in the CKG. Do you add bonuses and penalties to all charm based abilities or to just ones granted from high beauty? Also, mass suggestion when glimpsed, how do you general understand that to work in game?

To make the question more clear, say you are a bard or a knight and you have a 20 beauty at level 5. What abilities would be impacted by a high ability and would the bonuses be. When interacting with NPC, what happens? When Interacting with Players, what happens?

Thanks for your time.

Doing a quick read through, it looks like you add the modifiers for beauty, charisma, constitution, and wisdom along with level to set the CL for saves to be charmed. So in your example, the PC would have a base CL of 10 (5 for mod and 5 for level) plus any other modifiers for high Cha, Con, and Wis.

When interacting with NPCs, they would have to make a save or be "charmed" by the PC. For other PCs in the group, you could have them make a save also to see if the high beauty PC has charmed them also.

As to the intent, I'm not really sure what I would use it for in a campaign. To me it is like Comeliness from AD&D 1e. Which I found kind of stupid.

R-

I've understood (And use.) Charisma as a part-of-a-whole attribute. Someone could have average or below average looks but still be charismatic. Just as beauty can be folded into that character with combinations that equal a Charisma attribute.

I consider beauty/comeliness to be extraordinary beauty (Beauty queen, Chippendale, movie star etc.) that adds to Charisma.

Personally I don't use a "Beauty" score, I assume it is part of CHA. So in my home game I have my players roll percentile when creating a character, if they roll really high I give them a modifier to their rolled CHA attribute. They have to roll to get this, if they use one of my "build" options this is skipped. for 70 to 90% rolls I give them a +1 to their CHA roll, for 91 to 95 I give a +2, for 96 to 99 I give +3, for the rare 00, which has happened twice, I give them a whopping +5. So I did have a player start off with a Paladin with a 22 CHA, who strangely enough went on to be a well loved leader and attained the noble rank of "Count". The other 00 had a starting CHA of 13, since they rolled an 8 on the dice. So their personality sucked, but they sure were beautiful.

Indeed. What is beauty used for? This attribute could be summed up as a simple numerical indicating relative strength in beauty as compared to others without a ton of mechanics involved. The number of the BTY attribute could be an easy way to simply inject a bit of roleplaying into a character (for both the CK and the player) and use that score as a framework from which to build a character by. For example, some players roll attributes before they decide on what character they are going to play. When rolling for BTY, use that score as just another part of the whole with attributes to frame your character.

If the BTY score is enhanced, gained, or decreased somehow during play, perhaps you could consider that adjustment as a disguise for your character -- what about a long, lost relative (twin)?

Perhaps any bonus or penalty associated with your BTY score can be used in pseudo-mechanical/RP way to make checks to charm or repulse others by mere sight alone. Let's say you are really beautiful, perhaps with a BTY score of 20. Your character wants to flirt with the barmaid but doesn't really have the best charisma to pull that off. Your BTY attribute could come in handy. You walk up to her, bat your eyelashes -- the CK makes you roll a BTY check of d20 + BTY MOD + LEVEL against a challenge class of 18 + the barmaid's HD to swoon her with looks alone.

Since the BTY attribute is not associated with prime/secondary attributes, I would consider all attempts at actions like these to be compared against a challenge base of 18 (No prime 12s). Actually that is kind of cool if the Trolls wrote it that way (BTY as a sub-attribute, not associated with prime or secondary designations). That means, it would stand to reason that a character cannot be adroit in using BTY alone (without some charisma, wit, or charm) to get what they want... even if it was just trying to bed an NPC. Looks alone very RARely cut it.

~O

Well, on this (Com/Bty) I may be in the minority, but I’ve always been a fan of that attribute. To me it helps round out a character and takes it away from just being numbers used for combat etc.

I see beauty as the physical attractiveness of the player and as such can effect or enhance other attributes (Cha mainly) in specific settings, but never (well very few times) was a standalone effect.

That said, in my games (back in the day) Com/Bty only effected social/role playing scenarios soooooo I never had a hard and fast rule for the mechanics.

I’ll use 3 Os I served with to demonstrate how I see Bty and Cha being intertwined.

First, I had a great Lt, that was sadly butt ugly, but a born leader of us jumpers and our team would follow him to hell & back or work weeks of 18+ hour days with no day off without bulking (complaining yes, but him bringing in pizza & cold ones every night fixed that). I’d say he had a 7-8ish Bty balanced by a 15-16ish cha. With his looks, despite him being a great leader of us, when we went to the bar, out to eat etc, even I (who is by no means close to attractive) would be talked to and flirted with before he even had a second look.

Second, I had a female Capt that was HOT, but horrid as a leader and a vain and shallow spoiled rich girl. She couldn’t lead us out of a paper bag and we never put 1/4th the effort into work for her that we normally would. Admittedly, we enjoyed PT each morning with her, but other than that … not so much. This was even seen with the army units we worked with. The Col would call and have her come brief them, then have me or one of the other NCOs rebrief it after she left and actually help them plan the mission with the wx effects. For her, in the bar etc she would be surrounded before we ever got a table or made it to the bar. But no one truly liked her or wanted to spend time with her.

Finally, my last team leader, before I retired. He was Capt America handsome but at the same time he was an amazing leader. Again, we as a team went to hell and back with and for him, but unlike the first O and like the second, he had no problem in the bar etc having a cuttie to talk to any time he wanted.

For the game Lets say all 3 are at the king’s court for a noble’s party. I’d say the first O would be at a negative for initial NPC reactions until a real CHA test allowed him to overcome the low BTY (A true test of it that might be a few days after the party not just a few min at the court party, or multiple CHA test throughout the evening of the party). The second, would have a great initial reaction, but it would quickly wear off and eventually she would have to make a CHA check (which she may easily fail) or the people at the party would see that she is a shallow Hal. The third would have initial benefits from his high bty, and then the high cha would keep everyone’s interest. At the same party, depending on the players’ rolls, the first may end up with making a few friends and allies but would have done so having to overcome some initial negative reactions. The second, would be lucky to come from the party with more than just some nobles hoping to carve a notch on the ole bed post (a critical cha roll or 3 to be more than just the object of a 1 night stand). The 3rd, with a cha check or 2 would be noticed by the high crust of the nobles as being more than just handsome and doors to the halls of power would be opened.

As for

commanderFuron wrote: ...
To make the question more clear, say you are a bard or a knight and you have a 20 beauty at level 5. What abilities would be impacted by a high ability and would the bonuses be. When interacting with NPC, what happens? When Interacting with Players, what happens?

Thanks for your time.

I’d say, … First a 20 … wow that is higher than any mere mortal would ever have in my game (even the most beautiful elf maid would be lucky to have an 18

Then, that depends … is the skills something effected or enhanced by beauty – A bard singing a courtly love ballad, yes, a bard singing a good Homeric epic or Viking saga, maybe no. Is the knight at court talking to one of the ladies in waiting (or her father) yes. Is he preparing his men at arms to charge one last time into the breach … a resounding no to the bty being a benefit.

However, this is C&C, which means you as the CK can easily wing it and have fun with the fluid rules


Edit, I guess I should have scrolled down and read O's post, he said it much better (and shorter) than I ...

Thanks for your input everyone. Since Omotes game prompted my question, maybe he could clarify specifically how it works in his game. I don't find the description in the CKG to be very helpful and since it is an attribute in the game, knowing how it works would be nice.

Generically, I also don't mind the attribute because I think it does indicate something very different from charisma. Charisma to me is how you interact with people regardless of looks. I think a high beauty could enhance your already strong charisma or be a hinderance to an otherwise charming individual. People in real life judge you on how you look, well before you say or do anything. People even overlook poor charisma if a person is attractive enough.

Understand, that all the rules in the CKG are optional. You don't have to use Beauty as an attribute if you don't want to.

R-

I know it's optional, that was why I was asking about intent. I personally like having it as a stat even if it is effectively meaningless mechanically. It helps frame the character better for me. For instance a 20 is like a rockstar or brad pit, women love him and guys want to be him. As apposed to a 20 charisma and 10 bty, they are like a lot of politicians, not necessarily good looking but they can sway a room with there personality.

From a strictly mechanical point of view, the BTY attribute modifier is added to a character's level to determine overall challenge class for an opponent's wisdom saving throw to avoid being "charmed," as per the Mass Suggestion spell.

So, this would be a standard siege check of:
[BTY MOD + HD/LEVEL = CC] against target's WISDOM check [d20 + WIS MOD + Hd/LEVEL].

~O

To me, and this is how I am running it, the BTY attribute has much more to do with RP, then mass-suggesting every individual the beautiful creature comes in contact with. However, as my post above indicates, I would use the BTY modifier as an addition to the character's level when determining CC (Challenge Class) for opponent's wisdom checks.

Actually, all of this is spelled out pretty well in the CKG as I read it.

What is really nice, is that the author of this section of the CKG does bring up some penalties for mass suggesting targets if they succeed at the saving throw or those who would otherwise be unaffected.

I'll tell you this much, I would almost never count on a character's BTY score to affect combat. The definititions given in the Suggestion spell and Mass-Suggestion spell clearly state that those so charmed by such spells will become un-charmed if the subject does something that puts them in risk or would otherwise be directly contrary to the personality of the charmed individual/s. As CK, I would let the charmed effect be broken fairly easily. Suggesting to rob a bank, burn down a building, kick cow pies on the constable, and the like will probably not work in many situational instances.

~O

Omote wrote:To me, and this is how I am running it, the BTY attribute has much more to do with RP, then mass-suggesting every individual the beautiful creature comes in contact with. However, as my post above indicates, I would use the BTY modifier as an addition to the character's level when determining CC (Challenge Class) for opponent's wisdom checks.

...

~O

Rgr on that, I never liked the 'mass effect' of BTY. I'll have to keep your way of handling it in the back of my mind incase I ever get to run a game again ...

I just thought of something that may be a right turn on this.

What does a high beauty do for an assassin’s disguise skill?

Yes beauty can be used to get the guard thinking about something other that what he should be doing. But, a beautiful person will stick out in the crowd, be looked at more closely, and more easily remembered (as would an UGLY person). However, an average looking person simply blends in and is inherently forgettable …

Interesting thought. Though, a disguise should mitigate some/all of the problems with being full of beauty or ugliness. If the type of assassin is the kind to not wear a mask, or disguise themselves, the beauty could be a hindrance for sure. Plan properly assassin ye!

~O

I wouldn't think Beauty would effect combat. I think other than high beauty being disguised for an assassin you could think of them like James Bond. Using his stunning good looks to get to his target.

commanderFuron wrote:I wouldn't think Beauty would effect combat. I think other than high beauty being disguised for an assassin you could think of them like James Bond. Using his stunning good looks to get to his target.

But the argument the other way would be Jason Bourne. He is described in the books as average looking.

R-