Knight Help

[zombiehands]

Yup your right, never saw that.

Me either until just the other night ... all those years of missing having my knights with a band of followers to take care of the little bad guys while they sat on their horse and looked knightly And then ride in a trample down the last few orcs or lance the big bad guy to appear the hero that saves the day

I was thinking about meshing the two classes. The inspire ability cold be gained when the Cav. get a Banner Man at 4th level. The embolden could be an aura. The combat bonus could be gained early on. So as the knight starts off as a fighter type then at mid level becomes a leader.

[mgtremaine]

I'll add a few thoughts. My son runs a Knight in my game, this was his first character so he was also a RPG newbie. [Although it's been almost 4 years now so...]

1) If the player is NOT experienced you have to provide some opportunities for him/her to discover what a Knight is good at.

Example: Knights are an excellent judge of horses. So when the party gets to the level/money where they are ready to buy mounts the Knight should be handling this. His/Her Charisma bonus helps in haggling and his knowledge of horses should allow him/her to pick highly quality mounts. I translate this to allow the +2 HP bonus of the Knights birth-right mount to carry over into mounts the Knight specifically chooses.

In our Whiterock game this was a side quest where the Knight rode off in search of mounts for the group and the militia of the town. It took several stops to find a horse breeder that had a Heavy Warhorse but that was part of the fun.

2) Obviously once they acquire mounts you have opened up the opportunity to fight from horseback. As everyone has pointed out this is when the Knight rocks.

Example: My son knight has used the charge with lance several times to great affect. This first time was versus an Ogre and he killed it in one charge. Nothing like the smile on the players face when they hit with there charge and get x3 damage. [Much later he did the same thing to a Wyvern in flight while on a Griffon.]

3) The battle field bonus and portable armies. Consider some of the summoning magic as a chance to get troops for the Knight to buff up. Don;t forgot about magic items like the Horn of Valhalla, this is the perfect item for a knight. There are many others as well, obviously you do not want to unbalance your game but summonables are a great thing to get the Knight's Inspire bonus.

4) High level portable mounts... Things like Bronze Griffon and other magic steeds give the Knight something they can use in dungeon if ther eis enough space.

Example: In the last battle of our Whiterock game the Knight led the charge against the Dragon draped in magic and riding a Griffon. He hit and scored a huge amount of damage as the parties first round. [Ok well second round technically the Animal Growth + Cave Bear led the charge but the Dragon used Dispel Magic and dragged the Cave Bear into the lava field where it died. ;p ]

Hope that fires your imagination a little.... The Knight is awesome given the right opportunities.

-Mike

[dudeness of air]

I just thought I would add my two cents worth: I played a campaign (Wilderlands) with a dwarven knight who was more or less the group leader. He was the most powerful character of the campaign. We had large group with a large spread of characters (fighters, barbarians, wizards, rangers, etc.). We did so much dungeon delving he rarely had a chance to use his lance out in the open. Even though he was a knight, he excelled at dungeon fighting. What helped make him so powerful were some nice armor and a nice magical hammer.

[zombiehands]

I just thought I would add my two cents worth: I played a campaign (Wilderlands) with a dwarven knight who was more or less the group leader. He was the most powerful character of the campaign. We had large group with a large spread of characters (fighters, barbarians, wizards, rangers, etc.). We did so much dungeon delving he rarely had a chance to use his lance out in the open. Even though he was a knight, he excelled at dungeon fighting. What helped make him so powerful were some nice armor and a nice magical hammer.

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

I guess good magical items can help any class.

[Treebore]

I just thought I would add my two cents worth: I played a campaign (Wilderlands) with a dwarven knight who was more or less the group leader. He was the most powerful character of the campaign. We had large group with a large spread of characters (fighters, barbarians, wizards, rangers, etc.). We did so much dungeon delving he rarely had a chance to use his lance out in the open. Even though he was a knight, he excelled at dungeon fighting. What helped make him so powerful were some nice armor and a nice magical hammer.

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

I guess good magical items can help any class.

With the help of a specially designed saddle a dwarf would be able to ride any well trained battle horse.

[Lurker]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

I guess good magical items can help any class.

With the help of a specially designed saddle a dwarf would be able to ride any well trained battle horse.

I just got a mental picture of the bad guy from Shrek 1, what was his name ... Lord Farquaid

[Troll Root]

Sounds interesting....

[dudeness of air]

I just thought I would add my two cents worth: I played a campaign (Wilderlands) with a dwarven knight who was more or less the group leader. He was the most powerful character of the campaign. We had large group with a large spread of characters (fighters, barbarians, wizards, rangers, etc.). We did so much dungeon delving he rarely had a chance to use his lance out in the open. Even though he was a knight, he excelled at dungeon fighting. What helped make him so powerful were some nice armor and a nice magical hammer.

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

I guess good magical items can help any class.

Yes, he rode a war pony. That would be rather funny to see. He was a dwarven knight from the kingdom of Thunderhold.

[zombiehands]

I don't think a lance was meant to be used from the back of pony (or mule or donkey for that matter). I sure would not let it do lance damage.

[Arduin]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

[Treebore]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

Agreed. Even then, as can be seen today with modified saddles specifically made for the very short people (I forget their politically correct name), Halflings and such could ride a big war horse. Now handling a full sized lance will be another matter entirely, at least for Halflings. Dwarves are big enough, etc... that I can see them pulling it off. Especially since they are a pretty "dense" race, IE still have a high body mass.

As for the War Pony, I have seen plenty of "ponies" breaking 750 LBS in weight. Get them up to a good gallop with a nice heavy dwarf in plate up there, I think they will still have enough kinetic energy to inflict the same dice damage. Especially since the Knights multiplier is due to training. If you really cannot believe that a dwarf can handle the same size lance as a 9 STR human, then maybe step the dice down to being d6's.

[Arduin]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

Agreed. Even then, as can be seen today with modified saddles specifically made for the very short people (I forget their politically correct name), Halflings and such could ride a big war horse. Now handling a full sized lance will be another matter entirely, at least for Halflings. Dwarves are big enough, etc... that I can see them pulling it off. Especially since they are a pretty "dense" race, IE still have a high body mass.

As for the War Pony, I have seen plenty of "ponies" breaking 750 LBS in weight. Get them up to a good gallop with a nice heavy dwarf in plate up there, I think they will still have enough kinetic energy to inflict the same dice damage. Especially since the Knights multiplier is due to training. If you really cannot believe that a dwarf can handle the same size lance as a 9 STR human, then maybe step the dice down to being d6's.

Yep, given that dwarves are actually larger than elves, handling a full sized lance is a no brainer. Real ponies would probably not be able to handle the weight of an armoured dwarf as they are close to human weight.

[Treebore]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

Agreed. Even then, as can be seen today with modified saddles specifically made for the very short people (I forget their politically correct name), Halflings and such could ride a big war horse. Now handling a full sized lance will be another matter entirely, at least for Halflings. Dwarves are big enough, etc... that I can see them pulling it off. Especially since they are a pretty "dense" race, IE still have a high body mass.

As for the War Pony, I have seen plenty of "ponies" breaking 750 LBS in weight. Get them up to a good gallop with a nice heavy dwarf in plate up there, I think they will still have enough kinetic energy to inflict the same dice damage. Especially since the Knights multiplier is due to training. If you really cannot believe that a dwarf can handle the same size lance as a 9 STR human, then maybe step the dice down to being d6's.

Yep, given that dwarves are actually larger than elves, handling a full sized lance is a no brainer. Real ponies would probably not be able to handle the weight of an armoured dwarf as they are close to human weight.

Ponies are actually preferred for hauling large weight around for long periods of time over somewhat rough terrain. A little known fact about Knights and their warhorses is they were actually not ridden until needed. The knights walked, or rode one of the more normal horses. Why? Because riding the war horses over long periods of time/distance exhausted them, as well as increased the chances of making them come up lame, so they were very "pampered" in comparison to typical horses.

[Arduin]

Ponies are actually preferred for hauling large weight around for long periods of time over somewhat rough terrain. A little known fact about Knights and their warhorses is they were actually not ridden until needed. The knights walked, or rode one of the more normal horses. Why? Because riding the war horses over long periods of time/distance exhausted them, as well as increased the chances of making them come up lame, so they were very "pampered" in comparison to typical horses.

I grew up with horses. I don't think you are using the real definition of "pony". Real ponies carry MUCH less weight than say a quarter horse. You're right about the war horse. They were called destriers. They were about 15-16 hands but of heavy musculature. A bit slower than a good riding horse.

[NJPDX]

Dwarves fighting from the back of some great stinking horse?! Balderdash and poppycock, who ever heard of such thing? How are you going to maneuver them things down in the under tunnels fighting stinkin' good fer nothing gobbies and Orks?

[Treebore]

Ponies are actually preferred for hauling large weight around for long periods of time over somewhat rough terrain. A little known fact about Knights and their warhorses is they were actually not ridden until needed. The knights walked, or rode one of the more normal horses. Why? Because riding the war horses over long periods of time/distance exhausted them, as well as increased the chances of making them come up lame, so they were very "pampered" in comparison to typical horses.

I grew up with horses. I don't think you are using the real definition of "pony". Real ponies carry MUCH less weight than say a quarter horse. You're right about the war horse. They were called destriers. They were about 15-16 hands but of heavy musculature. A bit slower than a good riding horse.

I know what kind of ponies you are talking about. I've worked with a lot of horses, ponies, etc... I've owned a few and rescued a lot more. There are pretty big "ponies" as well as those tiny little things only kids can ride. Horses are very similar to dogs in that there have been a lot of "breeds" or "types" created over the centuries. I imagine most people, including me until about 5 or 6 years ago, think ponies only come in really small sizes.

[Treebore]

Dwarves fighting from the back of some great stinking horse?! Balderdash and poppycock, who ever heard of such thing? How are you going to maneuver them things down in the under tunnels fighting stinkin' good fer nothing gobbies and Orks?

There is that!

[serleran]

Dwarf knights ride each other, humpback style. Nothing is as scary as a bloodcurdling scream echoed in your ears as your eyes are gouged out by an axe-lance from some porcupine-armored beard rising atop another of the same. Ask goblins why they sweat in the night... dwarf night terrors is why. Terrible things, those bearded frog-leapers.

[Dracyian]

Dwarf knights ride each other, humpback style. Nothing is as scary as a bloodcurdling scream echoed in your ears as your eyes are gouged out by an axe-lance from some porcupine-armored beard rising atop another of the same. Ask goblins why they sweat in the night... dwarf night terrors is why. Terrible things, those bearded frog-leapers.

And now I wont be sleeping for weeks

[Arduin]

There are pretty big "ponies" as well as those tiny little things only kids can ride. Horses are very similar to dogs in that there have been a lot of "breeds" or "types" created over the centuries. I imagine most people, including me until about 5 or 6 years ago, think ponies only come in really small sizes.

What breed are you thinking of? The largest at maturity are ~14 hands. That's decent size but in NO way can carry as much as a strong large horse. Let me know if you remember the name of that mystery breed.

[Piperdog]

You know, I too found the same problems with the knight, as far as being a bit underwhelming as a warrior once on foot. Again, its a campaign thing. If I have a pc that wants to be a knight, I make darn sure to have plenty of mounted combat situations and roleplaying hooks that tie him into the story. That aside, I would have to concur that one of the best options for upping the damage potential of a knight is simply use the class and a half option. Fighter supported by knight; you get all the fighter ass kicking and the horsemanship skills of the knight. You lose the leadership aspects but if you want to be an ass kicker instead....that may be the way to go. Add a knights title and shiny armor...and there you go.

[serleran]

Dwarf knights ride each other, humpback style. Nothing is as scary as a bloodcurdling scream echoed in your ears as your eyes are gouged out by an axe-lance from some porcupine-armored beard rising atop another of the same. Ask goblins why they sweat in the night... dwarf night terrors is why. Terrible things, those bearded frog-leapers.

And now I wont be sleeping for weeks

Excellent. I shall keep the tales of the Last Black Sheep Tail to myself, for now.

[Dracyian]

Dwarf knights ride each other, humpback style. Nothing is as scary as a bloodcurdling scream echoed in your ears as your eyes are gouged out by an axe-lance from some porcupine-armored beard rising atop another of the same. Ask goblins why they sweat in the night... dwarf night terrors is why. Terrible things, those bearded frog-leapers.

And now I wont be sleeping for weeks

Excellent. I shall keep the tales of the Last Black Sheep Tail to myself, for now.

You may be mildly evil you know that?

[Treebore]

Dwarf knights ride each other, humpback style. Nothing is as scary as a bloodcurdling scream echoed in your ears as your eyes are gouged out by an axe-lance from some porcupine-armored beard rising atop another of the same. Ask goblins why they sweat in the night... dwarf night terrors is why. Terrible things, those bearded frog-leapers.

And now I wont be sleeping for weeks

Excellent. I shall keep the tales of the Last Black Sheep Tail to myself, for now.

You may be mildly evil you know that?

Oh, he is thoroughly evil, but as a CK that is a good thing.

[koralas]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel. Especially with a destrier, not just because of it's size, but the sheer power it will generate. Imagine trying to hold your seat when you legs reach, at best, to the midsection of the barrel. It is like trying to hold onto a baseball buy gripping only the top half of the ball, and then someone trying to pull it away. You don't have much leverage to keep your grip, you pinch harder but that only aids the ball in slipping away. Now take and grip the ball by going past the halway point to the inverse curve and you have a solid grip. That is what a dwarf would experience atop such a large horse. Not to mention, the horse would require special training since the commands given through the legs would be in vastly different places than for those given by a human or elf.

That said, it is completely plausible that a dwarf could mount a warhorse and be successful. And of course, you could rule that dwarves are just shorter, broader/denser than humans and make the point moot. A special saddle would still be in order, but nothing as drastic as if their legs were not in proportion to their bodies.

[Dracyian]

hmm a dwarf knight eh? What di he ride a pony?

Why a pony? Dwarves are ~4' tall. When I was a kid and that tall my horse was 17 1/2 hands tall and I had no problem...

This line was started long ago in D&D by someone who had ZERO horse riding experience.

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel. Especially with a destrier, not just because of it's size, but the sheer power it will generate. Imagine trying to hold your seat when you legs reach, at best, to the midsection of the barrel. It is like trying to hold onto a baseball buy gripping only the top half of the ball, and then someone trying to pull it away. You don't have much leverage to keep your grip, you pinch harder but that only aids the ball in slipping away. Now take and grip the ball by going past the halway point to the inverse curve and you have a solid grip. That is what a dwarf would experience atop such a large horse. Not to mention, the horse would require special training since the commands given through the legs would be in vastly different places than for those given by a human or elf.

That said, it is completely plausible that a dwarf could mount a warhorse and be successful. And of course, you could rule that dwarves are just shorter, broader/denser than humans and make the point moot. A special saddle would still be in order, but nothing as drastic as if their legs were not in proportion to their bodies.

Its obviously possible and where you ask do I find such evidence?
Lord Farquaad from Shrek during the scene he rides out to visit Fiona and Shrek at the windmill

[Arduin]

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel.

Umm, no.

[koralas]

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel.

Umm, no.

Ok, so no, what?

[Arduin]

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel.

Umm, no.

Ok, so no, what?

See data regarding little kids riding above. I've seen 6 year olds Barrel racing with nothing more than shortened stirrups.

[koralas]

The only issue I can see is the fact that the legs of a dwarf are so much shorter than a human. Remember that a dwarf's limbs are not in proportion to their body. The majority of a dwarf's height is in the body. While a special saddle can be created, the dwarf will need to be strapped in to the saddle since their legs will not be able to adequately grip the horse around it's barrel.

Umm, no.

Ok, so no, what?

See data regarding little kids riding above. I've seen 6 year olds Barrel racing with nothing more than shortened stirrups.

Ok, read my entire post about the difference in anatomy. Dwarves have legs and arms out of proportion to their body. In a human, the leg length is typically about 60% of the height of a person, meaning that the legs are roughly equal in length to the torso. In a dwarf this ratio is much lower. Consider that most fantasy dwarves, including those in C&C (see the drawing in the M&T) are shown with short legs and generally short arms. If you place this at approximately 33%, a dwarf of 4', would have legs about 15.8" in length, while on the high side at 4'6" (using charts from the DMG, I don't have my CKG with me for height charts from C&C), the character would have legs 16.2" in length. No where long enough to adequately grip the barrel of a horse to remain seated while doing things such as fighting, especially in a charge, even more so if charging with a lance.

Barrel racing is tough, but nothing like combat. You can keep your seat using stirrups, pommel, reins, and weight distribution fairly well. Now try that while charging with a lance or sword, especially when you impact your opponent, let alone when your opponent strikes you. Heck even swinging a sword, hammer, or mace hard enough to possibly damage your opponent is going to require a lot of leg strength to keep you in the saddle. A dwarf undoubtedly has the strength, but not the leverage. Again, special saddles might be able to overcome this, but it would come at a cost of building the saddle in a way to allow the dwarf to have something to grip to, which would preclude them from having direct contact with the horse to transfer commands through their legs.