Spell Levels

[Julian Grimm]

In my group we have been discussing how we liked the spell levels in AD&D over what we have in D20/C&C. All of us but one liked the way AD&D handled spell levels since it kept the wizard as the main magic user and fit the cleric better as a fighter-mage type of class. In our home game we opted to go back to the way AD&D did it as it was something we liked better and felt more like the game we used to play.

So, I was curious at how many of you like the new 0-9 paradigm that C&C and D20 uses compared to the AD&D way of doing things. You can vote once and I would love to see your reasoning.

[Arduin]

The added two levels to cleric spells don't in any way diminish a wizard.

[Ancalagon]

I cut my teeth with (A)D&D back in 1982 so the 1-7 range for clerics, druids & illusionists, and 1-9 range for magic-users is my favorite.

[finarvyn]

I grew up with the LBB with had 1-6 for the MU and 1-5 for the Cleric, and Greyhawk expanded this to 1-9 and 1-7 but I always thought those level ranges seeme a little strange. I voted 0-9 for both. Just seems to be more natural.

[NJPDX]

Levels 0 through 9 for all types of spells seems much more logical; but I can't say I've ever given the difference much thought.

[Buttmonkey]

I have never really given it much thought. I don't think I really care, so I don't have a preference.

[Traveller]

I don't have a preference, so long as clerics and druids don't have miracle in their spell lists. Sorry, but a cleric version of the wish spell dilutes the cleric archetype.

[Arduin]

I don't have a preference, so long as clerics and druids don't have miracle in their spell lists. Sorry, but a cleric version of the wish spell dilutes the cleric archetype.

Yeah, I think that one has its origin the Divine Intervention rule in the AD&D DMG... Don't like that spell either. It is much more fun watching a Wizard sweat through using a Wish spell.

[Julian Grimm]

Miracle, Wish, Raise Dead and Resurrection have all been removed from my campaign.

[Tadhg]

C&C method for sure!

[Traveller]

I don't have a preference, so long as clerics and druids don't have miracle in their spell lists. Sorry, but a cleric version of the wish spell dilutes the cleric archetype.

Yeah, I think that one has its origin the Divine Intervention rule in the AD&D DMG... Don't like that spell either. It is much more fun watching a Wizard sweat through using a Wish spell.

Wizards don't sweat enough. System shock due to aging for the win.

[NJPDX]

Miracle, Wish, Raise Dead and Resurrection have all been removed from my campaign.

I used to do this myself, but it was so much more fun to come up with a nasty list of side-effects that tampering with such power should cause. In short if you really want to get a god or demon's attention, this is the way to do it.

[Traveller]

It may be fun to come up with nasty side effects, however let's cut to the chase. Wish, limited wish, miracle, and to a lesser extent, alter reality can be game breakers even if properly adjudicated by the CK. Better to limit their presence to rare magic items that may have them and creatures that can grant them. Leads to fewer headaches that way.

[Arduin]

I don't have a preference, so long as clerics and druids don't have miracle in their spell lists. Sorry, but a cleric version of the wish spell dilutes the cleric archetype.

Yeah, I think that one has its origin the Divine Intervention rule in the AD&D DMG... Don't like that spell either. It is much more fun watching a Wizard sweat through using a Wish spell.

Wizards don't sweat enough. System shock due to aging for the win.

Oh cr@p! I forgot about that. Bwahaha

[Julian Grimm]

Miracle, Wish, Raise Dead and Resurrection have all been removed from my campaign.

I used to do this myself, but it was so much more fun to come up with a nasty list of side-effects that tampering with such power should cause. In short if you really want to get a god or demon's attention, this is the way to do it.

Due to the tone of my campaign I removed them since I felt those spells were the property of divine or infernal beings. I always felt that there was some power that did not belong to mortals.

[Treebore]

It may be fun to come up with nasty side effects, however let's cut to the chase. Wish, limited wish, miracle, and to a lesser extent, alter reality can be game breakers even if properly adjudicated by the CK. Better to limit their presence to rare magic items that may have them and creatures that can grant them. Leads to fewer headaches that way.

When your game gets high enough to allow these spells to be cast by the players PC's the game is already broken.

[Arduin]

When your game gets high enough to allow these spells to be cast by the players PC's the game is already broken.

Or, at least, MUCH more difficult to GM.

[Treebore]

The key to running a successful high level D&D game is to run it like it is a super hero RPG, because it is. At least to me. Once I started looking at high level D&D as being like a world of super heroes, and started running it as such, it became much more manageable, at least for me.

As for the OP question, I have thought about it, a lot, and right now, I have an over all preference for 0-9 levels of spells. Subject to change.

[Arduin]

The key to running a successful high level D&D game is to run it like it is a super hero RPG, because it is. At least to me. Once I started looking at high level D&D as being like a world of super heroes, and started running it as such, it became much more manageable, at least for me.

Yep. Superheroes vs. Super Villains.

[Dracyian]

Our CK is like a lawyer when it comes down to wish, if you can't make it simple short and sweet, very direct and to the point, the wish spell will have some just all together evil consequences for the party, so those are held very much in reserve.

I also agree with what tree said regarding it being like super heros, if you are high enough level to cast a 9th level spell as a wizard, there isn't much you haven't overcome in the game to get to that power and in some regards you are like a super hero.

[NJPDX]

It may be fun to come up with nasty side effects, however let's cut to the chase. Wish, limited wish, miracle, and to a lesser extent, alter reality can be game breakers even if properly adjudicated by the CK. Better to limit their presence to rare magic items that may have them and creatures that can grant them. Leads to fewer headaches that way.

I agree. Trouble is, people I've played with in the past would kvetch if I took away all of their toys outright. Mostly, I just got around this by springing the nasty reality that "raise dead" involves an unbreakable pact with a demon lord, can only be cast by a sufficiently high-level witch/warlock (who is always highly chaotic (I just use the Law-Chaos axis) and the person is ever after "chaos-touched," which has a host of other unpleasant side effects. In any case, most campaigns I've run tend to wind down by about level 9 or 10 or so, with characters either being retired to NPC status, so the really high level game with wish spells and reality tearing events has never really been an issue, but I can certainly understand why CKs would want to avoid or rule out these spells.

[Arduin]

Mostly, I just got around this by springing the nasty reality that "raise dead" involves an unbreakable pact with a demon lord, can only be cast by a sufficiently high-level witch/warlock (who is always highly chaotic (I just use the Law-Chaos axis) and the person is ever after "chaos-touched,"

So, how does a VERY high level LG cleric have a god (who supplies all other spells) who passes off one of his prized material plane assets to a Demon lord? I just don't see a LG god doing that. VERY illogical.

[NJPDX]

Mostly, I just got around this by springing the nasty reality that "raise dead" involves an unbreakable pact with a demon lord, can only be cast by a sufficiently high-level witch/warlock (who is always highly chaotic (I just use the Law-Chaos axis) and the person is ever after "chaos-touched,"

So, how does a VERY high level LG cleric have a god (who supplies all other spells) who passes off one of his prized material plane assets to a Demon lord? I just don't see a LG god doing that. VERY illogical.

I don't follow, or maybe there's some mis-communication? A) There is no concept of "good" in my campaign world and B) High level "Lawful" clerics (and Neutral druids) don't cast raise dead in my milieu. Raising the dead is seen as an unnatural act of necromancy. The gods' will is that mortals are meant to die, but some have gotten around this by contacting the infernal planes where the Princes of Chaos are usually amenable to upsetting the "natural" order of things.

Bottom line: I don't particularly like raise dead and resurrection in my games, because I think they cheapen death, but if my players really want to raise a character then they have to jump through some hoops and pay a heavy toll if they're dead-set on keeping a character and they are forever altered thereafter.

[Arduin]

I don't follow, or maybe there's some mis-communication? A) There is no concept of "good" in my campaign world

Ah! A completely different psychological paradigm from sentient thought as we know it. Okay, makes sense now.

[NJPDX]

Well there are people who certainly consider themselves "good" in my campaign world, but there is no objective or absolute good (or evil) in my game world. Morality and ethos are something like what exists in Micheal Moorcock's Eternal Champion series where the universe is locked in a never ending battle between the forces of Law and Chaos, with "The Balance" acting as a force unto itself.

But thanks for the sarcasm and snark.

[Arduin]

Well there are people who certainly consider themselves "good" in my campaign world, but there is no objective or absolute good (or evil) in my game world. Morality and ethos are something like what exists in Micheal Moorcock's Eternal Champion series where the universe is locked in a never ending battle between the forces of Law and Chaos, with "The Balance" acting as a force unto itself.

But thanks for the sarcasm and snark.

I wasn't being snarky. I was simply comparing to the most basic core rules about characters in C&C. See Alignment section on PHB pg. 41. You are simply running a game where that part is diametrically opposed to the rules. NOTHING wrong with that. It just takes away a large piece of common ground when discussing a C&C campaign. Hence, your Raise Dead rule not being understandable in context to the rules.

[Julian Grimm]

This sums up alignment in my campaign.

[NJPDX]

Well there are people who certainly consider themselves "good" in my campaign world, but there is no objective or absolute good (or evil) in my game world. Morality and ethos are something like what exists in Micheal Moorcock's Eternal Champion series where the universe is locked in a never ending battle between the forces of Law and Chaos, with "The Balance" acting as a force unto itself.

But thanks for the sarcasm and snark.

I wasn't being snarky. I was simply comparing to the most basic core rules about characters in C&C. See Alignment section on PHB pg. 41. You are simply running a game where that part is diametrically opposed to the rules. NOTHING wrong with that. It just takes away a large piece of common ground when discussing a C&C campaign. Hence, your Raise Dead rule not being understandable in context to the rules.

OK, my mistake. You have my apology. As for the rest, all I can say is that it works for me and it seems to work for the people I've played with. If the traditional nine alignments work for you then you should definitely stick with that.

prost.

[serleran]

I don't actually like spell levels. I like spells that have an effect based on the level of the caster. I see no reason a level 1 wizard couldn't use fireball, for example, but it will be far less effective then the level 7 wizard doing it.

[Dracyian]

one thing I always liked the idea of is spell points. A spell costs its level plus one point to cast and the spell caster gets the amount of spell points using his spell per day chart would add up to in the same manner. He can cast as many spells as his points allow per day. The highest level spells he can cast don't change but say his chart allows him one 8th level spell per day, in my mind I don't see why he couldn't sacrifice 9 points to cast it again, the toll it takes on the caste is already extracted by cutting down on his points, just my opinion