Troll Lord Games

Is anyone doing anything to alter the effects of Save or Die abilities? I think there is a time and place of Save or Die, but I also think there are a number of cool creatures and such out there that have cool abilities, but also posses Save or Die effects that makes me either shy away from them, or alter the ability, ect.

Anyone doing anything they'd like to share in regards to Save or Die that makes it a little less "brutal"? One thing I am doing is useing Fate Points, which will allow them to re-roll a D20 check or add 1d8 to the result of a D20 check. However, this does not apply on a roll of natural 1.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

I don't think i'd alter the abilities themselves. But nor would I spring a save-or-die effect on a party unexpectedly. Rather, i think the best way to deal with save-or-die effects are to give the characters advance warning as part of the story.

The characters can learn (perhaps through ancient lore, or eyewitnesses accounts, etc), that monster X can do Y. And then as part of the story, they can find a way to counter or at least increase their chances of dealing with the deadly effect.

It's kind of like Perseus knowing in advance that Medusa could turn him to stone with just a look. He was able to adjust his tactics in advance to protect himself.


-Fizz

Fizz wrote:I don't think i'd alter the abilities themselves. But nor would I spring a save-or-die effect on a party unexpectedly. Rather, i think the best way to deal with save-or-die effects are to give the characters advance warning as part of the story.

The characters (perhaps through ancient lore, or eyewitnesses accounts, etc), that monster X can do Y. And then as part of the story, they can find a way to counter or at least increase their chances of dealing with the deadly effect.

It's kind of like Perseus knowing in advance that Medusa could turn him to stone with just a look. He was able to adjust his tactics in advance to protect himself.


-Fizz

+1

Lobo316 wrote:Is anyone doing anything to alter the effects of Save or Die abilities? I think there is a time and place of Save or Die, but I also think there are a number of cool creatures and such out there that have cool abilities, but also posses Save or Die effects that makes me either shy away from them, or alter the ability, ect.

Which ones do you have in mind?

Only the ones for about the first 5 levels of gaming, after that I keep it pretty much "as is". Unless, of course, I am adapting something from 3E or 4E. Then I have to make it actually be deadly.

As much as I dislike losing a character, I dislike a world full of "safe" monsters and traps and poisons, etc... Adventuring is a dirty, nasty, high risk and high reward lifestyle, and I like to keep that "feel" in my games, so tend towards "die" far more often than just "save" and really be "safe". Plus with my keeping the full spell lists in my games, its not like Death can't be recovered from one way or another, if the given player wants to. Often enough, when a character dies, the player is ready to move on to a new character. So death remains permanent for those characters.

So just losing a character to losing HP just doesn't cut it for me. So when a second level party runs into a 4 HD Spider with Save or Die poison, I keep the "DIE!", but will treat the poison as weak in some way, so instead of them facing a CL 4 save, I'll make it CL 0 or 1, so they are more likely to live, even if CON isn't Prime. I've even been known to take armor worn into account. So if they are wearing full metal armor from head to toe, I'd even give 2 or 3 more bonus points to their save. Usually by just cutting the CL by that much. I like to keep those kinds of CK decisions up my sleeve, rather than tell them and have them question why I don't do it precisely the same for every creature I use.

Fantasy gods can be very fickle and whimsical, so since any CK is the ultimate "fantasy god" I like to make some of my decisions in a given situation in a similar way.

Lobo316 wrote:Is anyone doing anything to alter the effects of Save or Die abilities? I think there is a time and place of Save or Die, but I also think there are a number of cool creatures and such out there that have cool abilities, but also posses Save or Die effects that makes me either shy away from them, or alter the ability, ect.

Anyone doing anything they'd like to share in regards to Save or Die that makes it a little less "brutal"? One thing I am doing is useing Fate Points, which will allow them to re-roll a D20 check or add 1d8 to the result of a D20 check. However, this does not apply on a roll of natural 1.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

You have a badass Viking man as your avatar and you want to make something less "brutal"?

Treebore wrote:Only the ones for about the first 5 levels of gaming, after that I keep it pretty much "as is". Unless, of course, I am adapting something from 3E or 4E. Then I have to make it actually be deadly.

As much as I dislike losing a character, I dislike a world full of "safe" monsters and traps and poisons, etc... Adventuring is a dirty, nasty, high risk and high reward lifestyle, and I like to keep that "feel" in my games, so tend towards "die" far more often than just "save" and really be "safe". Plus with my keeping the full spell lists in my games, its not like Death can't be recovered from one way or another, if the given player wants to. Often enough, when a character dies, the player is ready to move on to a new character. So death remains permanent for those characters.

So just losing a character to losing HP just doesn't cut it for me. So when a second level party runs into a 4 HD Spider with Save or Die poison, I keep the "DIE!", but will treat the poison as weak in some way, so instead of them facing a CL 4 save, I'll make it CL 0 or 1, so they are more likely to live, even if CON isn't Prime. I've even been known to take armor worn into account. So if they are wearing full metal armor from head to toe, I'd even give 2 or 3 more bonus points to their save. Usually by just cutting the CL by that much. I like to keep those kinds of CK decisions up my sleeve, rather than tell them and have them question why I don't do it precisely the same for every creature I use.

Fantasy gods can be very fickle and whimsical, so since any CK is the ultimate "fantasy god" I like to make some of my decisions in a given situation in a similar way.

Excellent ideas all!!

Ancalagon wrote: You have a badass Viking man as your avatar and you want to make something less "brutal"?

VINO = Viking in name only

Arduin wrote:VINO = Viking in name only

Isn't that "wine" in Italian?

Sir Ironside wrote:

Arduin wrote:VINO = Viking in name only

Isn't that "wine" in Italian?

And in Spanish.

Treebore wrote:
....

As much as I dislike losing a character, I dislike a world full of "safe" monsters and traps and poisons, etc... Adventuring is a dirty, nasty, high risk and high reward lifestyle, and I like to keep that "feel" in my games, so tend towards "die" far more often than just "save" and really be "safe".
....

So when a second level party runs into a 4 HD Spider with Save or Die poison, I keep the "DIE!", but will treat the poison as weak in some way, so instead of them facing a CL 4 save, I'll make it CL 0 or 1, so they are more likely to live, even if CON isn't Prime. I've even been known to take armor worn into account. So if they are wearing full metal armor from head to toe, I'd even give 2 or 3 more bonus points to their save. Usually by just cutting the CL by that much. I like to keep those kinds of CK decisions up my sleeve, rather than tell them and have them question why I don't do it precisely the same for every creature I use.

Fantasy gods can be very fickle and whimsical, so since any CK is the ultimate "fantasy god" I like to make some of my decisions in a given situation in a similar way.

I'm with tree on this one. Adventuring is not an easy path, and there is danger. Part of that danger is death. No if ands or buts. That said, I did try and give the party a chance to not make the poor decisions that will hang everything on one random roll of the dice. If the party is smart and plans well they have a chance. Do they listen in the tavern's common room to the stories being told (about the creepy spider webs that are seen right up to the side of the road, the shepherds who have gone missing and odd foul smelling feathers found in the area) and are then warned about the giant spiders and harpies (and thus taking preventative measures). Or, do they simply drink and flirt with the barmaid and then walk flat footed into danger (and hope the dice gods are happy with them).

Arduin wrote:

Sir Ironside wrote:

Arduin wrote:VINO = Viking in name only

Isn't that "wine" in Italian?

And in Spanish.

Tooooo funny, I needed that good laugh!

Arduin wrote:

Sir Ironside wrote:

Arduin wrote:VINO = Viking in name only

Isn't that "wine" in Italian?

And in Spanish.

Somewhere there is a wanna be viking joke in here dealing with him drinking wine and not being man enough for bear or mead, but I haven't found it yet

I add more save or die. I then smile when the PCs fail the save. Once they are all dead, we have adventures with their corpses.

serleran wrote:we have adventures with their corpses.

TMI, for sure TMI ;p

-Mike

serleran wrote:I add more save or die. I then smile when the PCs fail the save. Once they are all dead, we have adventures with their corpses.

Awww yeah.

Ancalagon wrote:

Lobo316 wrote:Is anyone doing anything to alter the effects of Save or Die abilities? I think there is a time and place of Save or Die, but I also think there are a number of cool creatures and such out there that have cool abilities, but also posses Save or Die effects that makes me either shy away from them, or alter the ability, ect.

Anyone doing anything they'd like to share in regards to Save or Die that makes it a little less "brutal"? One thing I am doing is useing Fate Points, which will allow them to re-roll a D20 check or add 1d8 to the result of a D20 check. However, this does not apply on a roll of natural 1.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

You have a badass Viking man as your avatar and you want to make something less "brutal"?

Heh, heh, even that bad ass viking died to poison in 13th Warriro

I have nothing agains those effects, but I do think instant death type effects need to be used wisely. In fact, the game I am currently running has no raise dead spells. Dead is dead in this game. So, yes, I want to be a little careful about where and when i use such things, as well as how they are used.

Treebore wrote:Only the ones for about the first 5 levels of gaming, after that I keep it pretty much "as is". Unless, of course, I am adapting something from 3E or 4E. Then I have to make it actually be deadly.

As much as I dislike losing a character, I dislike a world full of "safe" monsters and traps and poisons, etc... Adventuring is a dirty, nasty, high risk and high reward lifestyle, and I like to keep that "feel" in my games, so tend towards "die" far more often than just "save" and really be "safe". Plus with my keeping the full spell lists in my games, its not like Death can't be recovered from one way or another, if the given player wants to. Often enough, when a character dies, the player is ready to move on to a new character. So death remains permanent for those characters.

So just losing a character to losing HP just doesn't cut it for me. So when a second level party runs into a 4 HD Spider with Save or Die poison, I keep the "DIE!", but will treat the poison as weak in some way, so instead of them facing a CL 4 save, I'll make it CL 0 or 1, so they are more likely to live, even if CON isn't Prime. I've even been known to take armor worn into account. So if they are wearing full metal armor from head to toe, I'd even give 2 or 3 more bonus points to their save. Usually by just cutting the CL by that much. I like to keep those kinds of CK decisions up my sleeve, rather than tell them and have them question why I don't do it precisely the same for every creature I use.

Fantasy gods can be very fickle and whimsical, so since any CK is the ultimate "fantasy god" I like to make some of my decisions in a given situation in a similar way.

Great ideas as always Tree!!!

I never was a big fan of 'Save or Die' as I felt it left too much to chance. I would rather see a character kick off from a stupid mistake rather than a bad die roll. I have turned more to the 3.X style of ability damage over SoD effects that way you still have something bad happen but your life does not hang in the balance of a bad roll.

Julian Grimm wrote:I never was a big fan of 'Save or Die' as I felt it left too much to chance. I would rather see a character kick off from a stupid mistake rather than a bad die roll. I have turned more to the 3.X style of ability damage over SoD effects that way you still have something bad happen but your life does not hang in the balance of a bad roll.

I've done that as well. I've also used mulitple failed saves to actually die, though there is still a negative effect of failing a save. But you will get another chance to pass it, maybe even two over X period of time depending on the poison (could be an hour, could be a day).

I don't remove save or die completely mind you, just use it carefully.

I don't think I'd take away the danger and consequences of "save or die" effects, but it's maybe not a bad idea to perform an object lesson on a "redshirt" (usually a henchman or hireling) first so the party gets a sense of what they are up against. If they possess any wisdom, then they should beat a hasty retreat at that point.

To further expand on this idea, I typically use monsters with SoD effects for "apex" moments in an adventure or random encounters, the former because it should be perfectly OK for characters to die at the climax of the story and the latter because random encounters should probably be avoided, since they typically don't offer much reward and are really just a mechanic for distracting and wearing down the party.

Lobo316 wrote:
Heh, heh, even that bad ass viking died to poison in 13th Warriro

I have nothing agains those effects, but I do think instant death type effects need to be used wisely. In fact, the game I am currently running has no raise dead spells. Dead is dead in this game. So, yes, I want to be a little careful about where and when i use such things, as well as how they are used.

Good point on his death in 13th warrior. That makes me think, is there a time that save or die does not mean 'drop dead right then and there'. Or, even a player not knowing that that roll you had them make was a save or die ...

Think of the role playing that can come from a character slowly succumbing (like your favored Viking) to a poison or something else as the player panicky tries to figure out what is wrong and if it can be fixed before the proverbial sand runs out

The save or die is still there, just not split second death. Of course those horrid monsters (Medusa comes to mind) that just MUST be that dangerous to be what they are supposed to be. That said, they should be used sparingly and therefore the SoD (instant version) should be also.

Save or dies are good when used sparingly, but I really like non-instant ones that give people some time to try and scramble for a cure. Or even to do that last heroic deed or quest before they die.

I actually started shying from 3.x/3.75/4.x because of the way some later iterations of games have shied away from SoD's in favor of straight damage, so understand that I may not be the most unbiased around here...

But that said, I do try to have ways around the downfall of an entire party to SoD's. For instance, as was suggested before, I'll try to leave clues to potential dangers (hmm, these two particular statues aren't made of the same material as the rest of the tomb, they look less iconic and more realistic, and there is a subtle edge of horror in their expressions) for astute characters/players to find. I might even fudge a bit to allow a player's character to survive an encounter, by having them barely survive the effect-- but losing one of their magic items, in the process-- especially if it'll work well for the story. Or give them one last 'failing strength' to do something before they end up as a corpse.

In the cases where a couple characters have fallen to the SoD's, the good thing about C&C is that character generation takes no time whatsoever... and if the players desire, the adventure can be broadened to save the dead (or otherwise) character(s). Say the high priest of Ehdrasim in the nearest town can raise the characters, but to do so, they'll have to provide a dangerous service for him. Or the tribal elder knows of a cure for one turned to stone by the Abyssal Basilisk's gaze, but it is said that one must mix its blood with the petals of a particular flower found only in the treacherous mountain reaches near the tribe's campsite. Or something of the like.

Like I said, I'm not a big fan of curbing SoD's, and it's not particularly because I hate PC's. I just think better stories can be told when the dangers are that life-or-death.

I don't see how to use them "sparingly" when the PC's keep facing off against deadly situations. Its part of the job description. I do have ways to mitigate such situations, which is why I have instituted a Luck point system, which does a very good job of turning a death into a near death experience, most times. Then as the last resort I have a God Call rule. If all that fails, your luck has simply run out, and your PC is dead. Then getting Raised/Resurrected can be worked out, or not, as the player wishes.

Lobo316 wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Lobo316 wrote:Is anyone doing anything to alter the effects of Save or Die abilities? I think there is a time and place of Save or Die, but I also think there are a number of cool creatures and such out there that have cool abilities, but also posses Save or Die effects that makes me either shy away from them, or alter the ability, ect.

Anyone doing anything they'd like to share in regards to Save or Die that makes it a little less "brutal"? One thing I am doing is useing Fate Points, which will allow them to re-roll a D20 check or add 1d8 to the result of a D20 check. However, this does not apply on a roll of natural 1.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

You have a badass Viking man as your avatar and you want to make something less "brutal"?

Heh, heh, even that bad ass viking died to poison in 13th Warriro

I have nothing agains those effects, but I do think instant death type effects need to be used wisely. In fact, the game I am currently running has no raise dead spells. Dead is dead in this game. So, yes, I want to be a little careful about where and when i use such things, as well as how they are used.

Oh, I agree about the wise use of instant death effects. Save or die effects are only a part of the brutality involved with adventuring. I like your approach with no raise dead spells. Death should be feared and not merely a speed bump between adventures.

One mantra I like when designing adventures is 'Thou shalt not commit overkill'... unless of course the purpose is to animate zombies. Heh.

I keep the "Save-or-Die" effects in the game, as-is, with no alteration. To me, the game is partly about risk, or it'd be called "Cities & Laborers" or somesuch. In my experiences, usually, the risk is not without warning. Meaning, there's usually not many (if any) "Surprise! Now, save-or-die!" moments. Traps do spring up (literally), or the occasional wandering monster with a save-or-die attack/effect happens to cross the party's path, but with proper tactics (against monsters) and investigation (against traps, for example) then save-or-die effects are usually mitigated quite well. I've usually gotten complaints from PCs when they rush headlong into battle against something they shouldn't or don't investigate that trapped door/chest when they probably should have. YMMV, of course.

Even when Raised Dead is used its still not a "bump", at the very least its a big money drain, plus they usually owe the Church/religion a favor. A HUGE one if they were not a worshiper in the first place. At least in my games. I hate "road bumps", I'd rather make them into a relevant story element.

The "Save" part has always bothered me as much as the "Die" part. You drink poison and fail your save, you die, fair enough: that's what you get for drinking poison. However, you drink poison and make your save and you are fine? I'm not so keen on the either one extreme effect versus no effect at all.