Troll Lord Games

For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

That is actually a really cool idea... the idea that [HOUSERULE] that a natural 1 is not an automatic miss. Really imaginative.

~O

Personally, I enjoy the natural 1/natural 20 thing too much to give it up, but it is certainly an imaginative idea. In my houserules, an automatic 1 is not only a fail, but a d10 gets rolled to determine if further bad things happen, modified by the character's attribute bonus if applicable. If the result is under 5, additional terrible things happen. Such as a weapon breaking, the character falling prone or possibly even a character stabbing themselves with their weapon.

Avoiding this entirely would be a sizeable, if situational, advantage.

Is this "always miss on a natural 1" a house rule? I can't find it in the PHB, nor always succeed on a 20.

Aergraith wrote:Is this "always miss on a natural 1" a house rule? I can't find it in the PHB, nor always succeed on a 20.

Yes, they are a house rule. I've never seen it in the PH either. I think the CKG does make such suggestions.

Oh yeah, I probably should have mentioned that part. In my games, a natural 1 is always failure, and a natural 20 is always a hit at max dmg. This goes for both sides of the board. Baddies and goodies. So to have a class feature which allows you to bend that rule as a knight seemed good. Especially given the idea that knights are supposed to be above average warriors. I also altered the barbarians extra health ability. I allow the barbarian to, at will, once per battle, award himself temporary hp = his constitution score instead of using the ability as listed. But that is a different story for a different thread.

D1/D20 is a hold over form 3.x

I use it for combat. For siege checks, I do not. There are times when a 20 still fails. A 1st level rogue, just cannot pick that genius built 1033 tumbler magic adamantine lock. Not even on a 20.

I do use critical hits, which are covered in CKG.

Snoring Rock wrote:D1/D20 is a hold over form 3.x

I use it for combat. For siege checks, I do not. There are times when a 20 still fails. A 1st level rogue, just cannot pick that genius built 1033 tumbler magic adamantine lock. Not even on a 20.

I do use critical hits, which are covered in CKG.

In a situation such as this, where I deem a deed impossible, I simply don't let them roll.

That being said, I don't do that all that often. I have no problem with allowing people the occasional roll where they HAVE to get a natural 20 to succeed. Because failure can also be fun. And if they DO succeed, hell, then the heroes just did something ...

... heroic.

jdizzy001 wrote:For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

If you go the second route where the knight can reroll the attack having rolled a natural 1 equal to charisma mod per day what happens when he fails a fourth or fifth time?

Does this go back to a standard natural 1 rule, that would make all parties happy

Also Would you count two natural 1's in a roll the gods telling your knight he is doomed or would you let him reroll a reroll.

Dracyian wrote:

jdizzy001 wrote:For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

If you go the second route where the knight can reroll the attack having rolled a natural 1 equal to charisma mod per day what happens when he fails a fourth or fifth time?

Does this go back to a standard natural 1 rule, that would make all parties happy

Also Would you count two natural 1's in a roll the gods telling your knight he is doomed or would you let him reroll a reroll.

Yes, should the knight roll more nat 1's than he has cha mods then I revert to "regular" nat 1 rules. And if the knight by some cruel twist of fate possesses a cha score which does not afford him a cha mod, he will still be permitted to use his weapon training ability once per day.

Should the knight roll back to back 1's, provided he has more cha mod bonuses, he can keep rerolling. Howeverr, c&c isn't too generous about handing out mod bonuses. At best (in my limited exp) a high level knight would only get 3ish rerolls in a session (provided he has a high cha mod, and the session occurs in a single game day).

jdizzy001 wrote:

Dracyian wrote:

jdizzy001 wrote:For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

If you go the second route where the knight can reroll the attack having rolled a natural 1 equal to charisma mod per day what happens when he fails a fourth or fifth time?

Does this go back to a standard natural 1 rule, that would make all parties happy

Also Would you count two natural 1's in a roll the gods telling your knight he is doomed or would you let him reroll a reroll.

Yes, should the knight roll more nat 1's than he has cha mods then I revert to "regular" nat 1 rules. And if the knight by some cruel twist of fate possesses a cha score which does not afford him a cha mod, he will still be permitted to use his weapon training ability once per day.

Should the knight roll back to back 1's, provided he has more cha mod bonuses, he can keep rerolling. Howeverr, c&c isn't too generous about handing out mod bonuses. At best (in my limited exp) a high level knight would only get 3ish rerolls in a session (provided he has a high cha mod, and the session occurs in a single game day).

I just ask because I have seen the dice turn up nat 1 after nat 1 after nat 1 both to unlucky and to the DM

I like the 2nd option best. However, I think weapon training is a hold over from the 1e cavalier. Where the weapon training gave a bonus to hit with certain weapons when the cavalier reached certain levels. So that being the case, I would make it a bonus to hit with a lance when mounted or some such.

R-

jdizzy001 wrote:For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

This is a very neat idea. I may steal this. Let me ask this though, if you go option 2, why is it based of Char? I mean, beyond the fact that Char is a prime for a knight, how does this affect his skill with a weapon? I'd rather see it be base on the knights level maybe? Something like....Once per day, for every 4 levels of experience, when the knight rolls a natural one...he may disrgard the natural one...and (fill in the blank...just miss, but nothing bad happen, re-roll the attack, etc).

jdizzy001 wrote: 1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

I haven't decided exactly which version I am going to use yet, but I am leaning towards option 2. Both of these ideas are just so good that I can't pass them up. Once I decide though, I am going to put the ruling immediately into my campaign.

Thanks so much for this topic JD.

~O

If I were to use option 2 I would rewrite it to being used at least once+ CHA modifier per day. I think it is bad to assume a Knight will always have a CHA 13 or higher, or make their ability unusable. I made a similar change to Inspire as well. Without a 13 or higher CHA on that, it becomes useless as written as well.

Lobo316 wrote:

jdizzy001 wrote:For those of us with an older edition of the c&c phb, the knight entry lists an ability called weapon training. As it has been discussed in the past, this seems to be a typo. Or at least something that was accidently left in. Having no idea what it is beyond proficiencies, i have com up with a "purpose" for it. Though I have not got to beta it, I plan to use it as such: So skilled is the knight with his knightly weapon, he finds success where others find failure. Select a weapon. If a knight rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll, when using his selected weapon, it does not count as an automatic failure.

Here I am at an impass. I was thinking it could then do 1 of 2 things:
1. Nothing, it just affordsthe knight a chance to hit even though he rolled a 1 (he'll probably still miss as a roll of 1 plus modifiers won't be enough to hit anything beyond the weakest of foes).
2. The knight may reroll the attack. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to his charisma modifier.

Comments?

This is a very neat idea. I may steal this. Let me ask this though, if you go option 2, why is it based of Char? I mean, beyond the fact that Char is a prime for a knight, how does this affect his skill with a weapon? I'd rather see it be base on the knights level maybe? Something like....Once per day, for every 4 levels of experience, when the knight rolls a natural one...he may disrgard the natural one...and (fill in the blank...just miss, but nothing bad happen, re-roll the attack, etc).

The only reason I chose cha was because he is a cha prime character. It would work with any stat or level. I like tree's addendum, making it cha mod +1 that way even very unsavioury knights can still use it. If one were to be super technical it would probably work best if it was effected by his str mod.

With TB's addition, I am going to lean towards option 2. If a knight rolls a nat 1 with his selected knightly weapon he may reroll the nat 1 a number of times per day equal to his cha mod +1.

The reason I didn't give him a straight numeric bonus to his knightly weapon as per the 1e cavalier was 2 fold.
1 to avoid a rehash of the fighter's weapon ability.
2 i like to come up with abilities that move beyond straight up numeric bonuses. For example, rerolls, roll 2x and choose the best, roll 2x and choose the worst (for penalties), etc.

Finally, I'm glad to hear this houserule has garnered some favor

Aergraith wrote:Is this "always miss on a natural 1" a house rule? I can't find it in the PHB, nor always succeed on a 20.

Yes, it is a house rule. I don't you those. I play that per RAW.

You know, I may expand upon this idea so that it affects ANY weapon a knight fights with (instead of some favored weapon or something). It helps reflect the more disciplined fighting styple of the knight.

Lobo316 wrote:You know, I may expand upon this idea so that it affects ANY weapon a knight fights with (instead of some favored weapon or something). It helps reflect the more disciplined fighting styple of the knight.

you could also go by weapon groups such as swords, daggers, axes and the such

Without getting into too much detail, that is what I mean by knightly weapon. Historically knights were known for using swords, lances, axes, falchion (poor knights. Literally, knights without cash), spears, crossbows, maces and hammers. There were a few others but those were the big ones. I also assumed that since a knight has a code, their code would define what is considered a knightly weapon and those defined weapons would benefit from the weapon training ability.

I also thought about removing the "per day" restriction, and just giving the knight a roll to ignore the effects of the natural 1. Something like D20+ STR or DEX modifier with a target # of 12.

Or maybe a modified saving throw D20+ STR or DEX Mod + 1/2 level against a CC 15.

Remove the per day restrictions, base it off a roll, and your good to go.

Just tossing stuff against the wall.

Sorry, I am a newbie to Castles and Crusades.
I thought that the knights weapon specialization applied to: while mounted.
I mean the lance damage and no penalization to other combat actions from an unstable platform while mounted.
Is there supposed to be more to it?
Thanks for reading.
Volo.

Volomyre wrote:Sorry, I am a newbie to Castles and Crusades.
I thought that the knights weapon specialization applied to: while mounted.
I mean the lance damage and no penalization to other combat actions from an unstable platform while mounted.
Is there supposed to be more to it?
Thanks for reading.
Volo.

Actually, thats what I consider it to be.

Volomyre wrote:Sorry, I am a newbie to Castles and Crusades.
I thought that the knights weapon specialization applied to: while mounted.
I mean the lance damage and no penalization to other combat actions from an unstable platform while mounted.
Is there supposed to be more to it?
Thanks for reading.
Volo.

Don't have my books in front of me, but I thought the poster was referring to something else...a holdover from an older edition?

Lobo316 wrote: Don't have my books in front of me, but I thought the poster was referring to something else...a holdover from an older edition?

It could be. Its "position" makes it kind of ambiguous. I just went with what made the most sense to me at the time. So I just treated it like it refers to the Horsemanship and Lance abilities.

Treebore wrote:

Lobo316 wrote: Don't have my books in front of me, but I thought the poster was referring to something else...a holdover from an older edition?

It could be. Its "position" makes it kind of ambiguous. I just went with what made the most sense to me at the time. So I just treated it like it refers to the Horsemanship and Lance abilities.

Makes sense enough, though I still think jdizzy001's idea is pretty neat

This is midly complicated but I think it would be cool, if the Knight rolls a natural 1 he can through his training and being the blunt of many failed atempts during his training, attempt a "new" attack and he then rolls Cha check (I picked Cha for two reasons, reason 1 being that it is the Class attribute, reason 2 that after making such a fumble a recovery attempt if it was obvious would be less effective than one just seems to spring up from the failure sort of thing, dex or strength would work too or a whole different save entirely) against the targets dex save. If the Knight wins he gets his attack as a hit, or you could go even so far as giving the knight a called shot for it

the weapon training ability could be a refernce to the knight's lance atks and such however, since his profile doesn't describe that and lists everything under his horse abilities I looked at the empty ability and saw a blank canvas.

jdizzy001 wrote:the weapon training ability could be a refernce to the knight's lance atks and such however, since his profile doesn't describe that and lists everything under his horse abilities I looked at the empty ability and saw a blank canvas.

And crafted a masterpeice, not only did you invent two excellent and original ideas but got the creative juices flowing in other places too

OK, so after thinking this over a bit, this is what I've come up with for my house rules. I really kinda dig the idea of a class having a chance to ignore a "critical failure" on a natural 1 (if one is even using crits, which I am). So, for what it's worth, here we go...

Once per day, when a knight rolls a natural 1 in melee combat, he may make a strength based saving throw with a CL equal to the level of the opponent. Treat the save throw as a prime, even if strength is not a prime. If successful, he may ignore any rules for fumbling and treat the natural 1 as normal miss. He may do this twice per day at 8th level, and three times per day at 16th level.

The only thing I'm still wrestling with is possibly removing the "per day" restriction. Making it a save, with a CL = to the opponents HD, means it's not a "gimmie" so I'm not sure the restrictions per day are really needed.