gettng swallowed by the Purple Worm pretty much guarantee's

[Treebore]

death. Good luck cutting your way out doing those 30 points of damage before the 1d20+10+10 Acid each round kills you. Especially if you were bit once or twice before being swallowed. Remember, you can only use a "light" weapon to cut your way out. So unless you can do 10 points or better per round, your likely dead, since your taking an average of 30 points per round, no save.

[Arduin]

death. Good luck cutting your way out doing those 30 points of damage before the 1d20+10+10 Acid each round kills you. Especially if you were bit once or twice before being swallowed. Remember, you can only use a "light" weapon to cut your way out. So unless you can do 10 points or better per round, your likely dead, since your taking an average of 30 points per round, no save.

Yep. Unless you can teleport or something you are most likely toast.

[mgtremaine]

I've provided 2 opportunities to tangle with Purple Worms to my party in the last 2 years, strangely no takers. :p "Uh, we go the other way..."

-Mike

[Treebore]

Personally I am house ruling it back to 1E or 2E. 1d20+10+10 smacks too much of 3E power creep to me.

[KaiserKris]

Personally I am house ruling it back to 1E or 2E. 1d20+10+10 smacks too much of 3E power creep to me.

Which is? I'd be personally inclined towards something on the order of 4d8 or 6d6 per round. Which is still pretty darned heavy damage. But the average would be 16 or 18 per round, instead of 30. Much more "manageable" than as a fighter.

The alternative, I think, would be to simply have it be a save against death per round, depending on whether you want to be fairly sporting or torment your players. >:3

[Dracyian]

Personally I am house ruling it back to 1E or 2E. 1d20+10+10 smacks too much of 3E power creep to me.

Which is? I'd be personally inclined towards something on the order of 4d8 or 6d6 per round. Which is still pretty darned heavy damage. But the average would be 16 or 18 per round, instead of 30. Much more "manageable" than as a fighter.

The alternative, I think, would be to simply have it be a save against death per round, depending on whether you want to be fairly sporting or torment your players. >:3

I'd be willing to bet that the fact they were in a position to get swallowed up by a purple worm makes you no more sporting than the fellow from that one story who hunts unarmed men

[Lurker]

I've provided 2 opportunities to tangle with Purple Worms to my party in the last 2 years, strangely no takers. :p "Uh, we go the other way..."

-Mike

That is a good point ... Back in the day, I've ran & played in games where we fought devils demons dragons etc etc etc, but never stood to fight a purple worm ...

[KaiserKris]

Personally I am house ruling it back to 1E or 2E. 1d20+10+10 smacks too much of 3E power creep to me.

Which is? I'd be personally inclined towards something on the order of 4d8 or 6d6 per round. Which is still pretty darned heavy damage. But the average would be 16 or 18 per round, instead of 30. Much more "manageable" than as a fighter.

The alternative, I think, would be to simply have it be a save against death per round, depending on whether you want to be fairly sporting or torment your players. >:3

I'd be willing to bet that the fact they were in a position to get swallowed up by a purple worm makes you no more sporting than the fellow from that one story who hunts unarmed men

Nah, that wasn't me. That was the babau demon (a la my revision) the adventurers once had to get past in order to escape a prison they were in.

"We're invisiiiible, how is it still stalking usssss?!?!?"
"Suz, gimme an Int check to see if your wizard knows why the hell this is happening."
"I got a 20! Sweet!"
"The fiend isn't seeing at all. It's smelling your blood."
"... D:"
*DM puts on Killers by Iron Maiden*

Yeah, so maybe I'm not the most sporting fellow all the time.

Anyways, purple worms. Pretty sweet monsters. Though I call `em sandworms or Shaitan. Because Dune.

[Relaxo]

I'm inclined to think getting swallowed by a worm large enough to swallow a subway car pretty much should totally kill you.

Unless you are Baron Munchhausen (spelling)

[Treebore]

Well, you guys can make them as deadly as you want, I am just going to house rule it back to the 1E 3d6/round version, or maybe the 2E version, I just don't know yet because I haven't sat down to look in my 2E MM. I think once inside they should have a sporting chance to have 5 or 6 rounds to cut their way out, not take 100 to 200 points of damage, with no save, or other way to avoid it, and be dead well before they even get close to getting out.

If you think 1d20+10+10 isn't 3E power creep, I don't think I can help clear it up for you. All I can tell you is you won't see damage like that, every round, with no way to save, in 1E or 2E, but you will see it in 3E and 4E books. Except they likely do give you a save DC each round, or some other ways out. So in this instance, C&C out OP's even 3E and 4E.

[Treebore]

Yep, it definitely out does 3E, just I was wrong about them giving you a way out once you were inside, other than cutting your way out.

"Swallow Whole (Ex)

A purple worm can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+12 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 17). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantuan worm’s interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. "

---3E SRD

[Traveller]

If I were to house rule it I'd likely go the OD&D route. In OD&D, any person swallowed by the Purple Worm dies in six rounds unless the party can kill the monster in that time frame. While it's not stated one way or another in those rules, I'd not allow the swallowed person to assist in any way.

God help anyone facing off with a Purple Worm using the Gray Book.

[Treebore]

That would be the simplest way. I very well may go that route.

[mgtremaine]

C&C out OP's even 3E and 4E.

I like this quote!

-Mike

[Just Jeff]

I'm disappointed with this thread. I thought body of the OP would open with "hilarity will ensue."

[Dracyian]

Well a party of 7 level three adventurers on their journey to be heros actually some how survived an encounter with a purple worm, the worm we acutally went looking for... and everyone managed to avoid being swallowed whole through the use of hero points from the gracious CK. However it was nice to walk out of the dungeon with a swath of treasure and back to town to level up

[Snoring Rock]

Well, you guys can make them as deadly as you want, I am just going to house rule it back to the 1E 3d6/round version, or maybe the 2E version, I just don't know yet because I haven't sat down to look in my 2E MM. I think once inside they should have a sporting chance to have 5 or 6 rounds to cut their way out, not take 100 to 200 points of damage, with no save, or other way to avoid it, and be dead well before they even get close to getting out.

If you think 1d20+10+10 isn't 3E power creep, I don't think I can help clear it up for you. All I can tell you is you won't see damage like that, every round, with no way to save, in 1E or 2E, but you will see it in 3E and 4E books. Except they likely do give you a save DC each round, or some other ways out. So in this instance, C&C out OP's even 3E and 4E.

I know its just a game and they need a chance, but have you ever seen a fly escape after a trout swallows it? Have you ever seen an earthworm escape after the baby birds swallow them? How about that well armed-praying mantis that gets swallowed by a bull frog? I think swallowed....is well, swallowed.

It is a fantasy game, so it is a make-believe purple worm. So why not?

I have house ruled certain death once you pass the palate.

[Treebore]

Well, you guys can make them as deadly as you want, I am just going to house rule it back to the 1E 3d6/round version, or maybe the 2E version, I just don't know yet because I haven't sat down to look in my 2E MM. I think once inside they should have a sporting chance to have 5 or 6 rounds to cut their way out, not take 100 to 200 points of damage, with no save, or other way to avoid it, and be dead well before they even get close to getting out.

If you think 1d20+10+10 isn't 3E power creep, I don't think I can help clear it up for you. All I can tell you is you won't see damage like that, every round, with no way to save, in 1E or 2E, but you will see it in 3E and 4E books. Except they likely do give you a save DC each round, or some other ways out. So in this instance, C&C out OP's even 3E and 4E.

I know its just a game and they need a chance, but have you ever seen a fly escape after a trout swallows it? Have you ever seen an earthworm escape after the baby birds swallow them? How about that well armed-praying mantis that gets swallowed by a bull frog? I think swallowed....is well, swallowed.

It is a fantasy game, so it is a make-believe purple worm. So why not?

I have house ruled certain death once you pass the palate.

You know what the fly, worm and Mantis don't have? Appropriate weapons and higher functioning brains. Plus it doesn't change the fact that C&C has the internal damage done by the Purple Worm more powerful than even what is in 3E D&D. Its over powered, pure and simple. Especially for a game that is supposedly based primarily upon 1E AD&D.

[Relaxo]

Maybe there's a good reason for it, like, half the trolls wanted it to be an instant kill and half wanted it old shool ish.
?

[Snoring Rock]

So are dragons. Ever fight a Pathfinder or 3.5 dragon and then try doing the same against a C&C dragon? Pathfinder dragons are play things in comparison. I am not sure that across the board conversions from 1e-3.5e-Pathfinder work when translated to C&C. The same goes for purple worms. No big deal in Pathfinder, but a C&C purple worm is well; not nice.

I get it, but I like the scary nature of it. As for brains and weapons, a turkey gizzard, about 3 inches in diameter, crushed stone and hard seeds. A purple worm gizzard, 3 feet in diameter, crushed weapons and brains.

That would be why only small weapons would be allowed. You can house rule however you like, but I personally like it RaW.

Just say'n

[Treebore]

So are dragons. Ever fight a Pathfinder or 3.5 dragon and then try doing the same against a C&C dragon? Pathfinder dragons are play things in comparison. I am not sure that across the board conversions from 1e-3.5e-Pathfinder work when translated to C&C. The same goes for purple worms. No big deal in Pathfinder, but a C&C purple worm is well; not nice.

I get it, but I like the scary nature of it. As for brains and weapons, a turkey gizzard, about 3 inches in diameter, crushed stone and hard seeds. A purple worm gizzard, 3 feet in diameter, crushed weapons and brains.

That would be why only small weapons would be allowed. You can house rule however you like, but I personally like it RaW.

Just say'n

Its not "scary" it was instant kill. I didn't even survive the first round. It helped that I had been bitten before I was swallowed, but its over powered for C&C, period. Yes, I have ran Dragons. I am pretty sure I run and play more C&C than anyone, including the Trolls themselves. After all, I am in 3 games every week. So if I am right, I have far more experience with C&C than anyone, and see far more game play situations. Even so, the internal damage the Purple Worm does is over powered. As for C&C Dragons, by the book they are pretty whimpy, even compared to Pathfinder. Why? Because by the book you cut their BtH in half, not go by their HD. So you have a 22 HD dragon attacking with just a +11. Save wise they are pretty darn tough.

[Snoring Rock]

Tree, I say this tongue in cheek, but you have no experience at all playing C&C. You have so many house rules and stuff you have added that what you play does not resemble C&C in the slightest. It look more like Pathfinder. I have seen your house rules. So no, you do NOT play C&C. But you should try it, it's a great rules light game. Take a breath, and just poking a little fun dude.

I will have a moment of silence for your fallen (swallowed) hero. (silence) And then say that I like the rules as written, but it does not fit. Yes I agree it is a bit rough. But as stated earlier, most party's say no thanks and run. I like that.

But, you can always house rule it to be less of a killing machine in your games. I also disagree about dragons. In Pathfinder you normally have (level high enough to have a fair fight) feats and skills to go around most of the established rules to fight the dragon. And you can use uber-ized magic on them. In C&C your magic vs. a dragon is most times, useless. They have great saves as you pointed out. I have played enough C&C to know that there is in fact a big difference. Hit points are hard to come by in C&C. I do have a long history with 3.5/Pathfinder as well.

All of that said, it is this kind of stuff like certain death purple worm swallowing that sometimes turns me off to C&C. This is another instance where you will house rule something in. I find it more and more. Stuff that just is not balanced or does not fit right. I harken back to my incomplete rules thread a few weeks ago.

It would be nice to be able to pick up the book and play and not run into this stuff. You are right, the damage from being swallowed does not fit the HD and other aspects of the critter. I call this inconsistency. It is the reason so many have house ruled this game to death. No two tables play the same in C&C.

C&C is a great idea. D20 but scaled back. But in so doing, some of the core mechanic under the hood got lost or mixed up. Not sure how to fix that.

[Treebore]

I ran C&C "as is" for the first 8 levels of my first home game. Then I started adding "house rules". I never alter an RPG without first trying it out "as is". Even so, doesn't change the fact that the Purple Worm damage is OP for C&C.

[Arduin]

I get it, but I like the scary nature of it. As for brains and weapons, a turkey gizzard, about 3 inches in diameter, crushed stone and hard seeds. A purple worm gizzard, 3 feet in diameter, crushed weapons and brains.

That would be why only small weapons would be allowed. You can house rule however you like, but I personally like it RaW.

Exactly. SO scary that most people don't ever want to try and fight one. It logically gets to a point where fighting something so huge is just too dangerous. If you fall far enough almost any character dies. If a creature is large enough, being squished/crushed by one in a single go is unavoidable. It would actually be unbelievable if that weren't so.

[Lord Dynel]

I get it, but I like the scary nature of it. As for brains and weapons, a turkey gizzard, about 3 inches in diameter, crushed stone and hard seeds. A purple worm gizzard, 3 feet in diameter, crushed weapons and brains.

That would be why only small weapons would be allowed. You can house rule however you like, but I personally like it RaW.

Exactly. SO scary that most people don't ever want to try and fight one. It logically gets to a point where fighting something so huge is just too dangerous. If you fall far enough almost any character dies. If a creature is large enough, being squished/crushed by one in a single go is unavoidable. It would actually be unbelievable if that weren't so.

I love ya, Tree, but I'm in the "close to RAW as possible" camp, too. I try my best to keep the changes to a minimum and only for things that absolutely need fixing. To me this is a non-issue. But that's for me. For Tree, or anyone else, it may be an issue that needs addressing. I like them dangerous, so I would keep them as-is. Admittedly, I haven't used them in-game, so that opinion might change.

[Dracyian]

I have never used them as a DM/CK/GM but as a player I would rather walk away till I was a bit bigger, they are incredibly scary and need to be dealt as much damage as quickly as possible while staying away from its gapping maw

[Buttmonkey]

Even so, doesn't change the fact that the Purple Worm damage is OP for C&C.

This is where you lose me. How can the purple worm be overpowered for C&C? It is what it is within C&C. If C&C were simply a 1E emulator, I could see that being a valid point if the C&C purple worm failed to emulate the 1E version. But C&C is not simply a 1E emulator. It is its own game, albeit rooted in the 1E tradition. If you don't like the C&C purple worm as statted out, by all means change it to meet your preferences, but don't say it is overpowered for C&C. Putting it that way, in my mind anyway, implies that the authors of C&C somehow made an objective error when they put the system and the monster together in the first place. I don't think that is right. The C&C purple worm may not meet your (or even everyone's) subjective preferences, but there is nothing objectively erroneous about the monster. It is what it is. I'm probably being overly nitpicky. Move along...

[dunbruha]

I looked up the S&W version (my current go-to monster source). It has them swallow whole if the roll to hit exceeds the target by 4 or more (and they are adding 15 to the roll...). Once you are swallowed, you're dead!

[Relaxo]

I"m not reading them side by side, but isn't a Morgl like, pretty mcuh invincible? that's not overpowered, it's a defining super bad ass monster.

While respecting and encouraging your right to houserule, I'm also good with lethal purple worm bites. the thing is the size of the sears tower, why wouldn't it kill you almost instantly? but that's just me.

[alcyone]

On one hand, you need to roll a natural 19 for the purple worm to get that attack. And you are presumably warned by earthquakes (yeah, I know, little comfort.) And you (hopefully) aren't facing the thing down yourself; your friends aren't limited by light weapons.

On the other, the typical mode of attack is to burrow and surprise; you probably aren't in combat with a purple worm because you thought it would be a neat idea; you aren't facing one down because of bad play. And it can burrow after it swallows you; then it truly is you vs. the worm with your pigsticker. And even if your friends can help, one might be joining you every 10 rounds or so.