ATTRIBUTE INCREASES

[Lobo316]

Just a quick poll/question...

How many of you out there are using level based attribute increases?

If so, how often do you give them? Every 4th level? Every 5 levels?

Last, at "higher" levels of play, have you noticed any ill effects from this? Any balance re-lated issues to be concerned about? Does this make players "too powerful" or too "tuff"? Does it take away from the game at all?

Thanks!

[mbeacom]

I used them as written in 4E. It was baked into the math of the game so it didn't actually CHANGE anything. You would have only noticed a change if you did NOT do it. This is the wrong way to do things btw. However, my players loved it. They just love bumping ability scores so whatever. I will eventually do it in my 5E game because it's part of the playtest and I want to give that a shot. However, I've never done it as a matter of course within any old school or classic system. I think every 4 levels would probably start to create problems at the high end, but then again in old school games, PCs rarely lived that long so maybe it wouldn't hurt. I guess I would ask what the desired effect is, and then try to decide if that effect is achieved without too many negative side effects.

[Arduin]

Just a quick poll/question...

How many of you out there are using level based attribute increases?

IF we get to those levels, I'll be using the system from the CKG. That doesn't kick in until >13th level. However I use the Table 1.3 Attribute Modifiers M2 from the CKG along with point allocation for char gen. So, that makes PC's a bit more powerful than default PHB rules. I have found that this satisfies all but that most munchkin type players.

[Rigon]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

[Arduin]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

[Lobo316]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

That's an interesting take Rigon, limiting it to racial maximums.

It's just something I've been toying with. Players like attribute increases, whether through level advancement or magic items. I've instituted a number of things that have reduced the reliance upon the cleric to be a "heal-bot" and the need for healing potions, was thinking of another way to "reward" the players, beyond magic items.

I'm also intrigued by your rate of increase. That seems reasonable for an old school game system.

[Lobo316]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

I think he's referring to racial mods. Dwarves are a +1 to Con, so 19 would be thier max, while 17 would be thier max Dex (-1 to Dex). Am I correct Rigon?

[Rigon]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

It's 3-18, unless a racial modifier gives a bonus or negative. For example, a human can not have an raise an attribute this way beyond 18. However, a dwarf can increase his Con to as high as 19, but can only have a Dex as high as 17.

Not sure if they are in any book, but logic dictates them.

R-

[Rigon]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

I think he's referring to racial mods. Dwarves are a +1 to Con, so 19 would be thier max, while 17 would be thier max Dex (-1 to Dex). Am I correct Rigon?

Yep.

R-

[Arduin]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

I think he's referring to racial mods. Dwarves are a +1 to Con, so 19 would be thier max, while 17 would be thier max Dex (-1 to Dex). Am I correct Rigon?

Yep.

R-

I can see where a house rule like that would hinder stat inflation problems.

[Rigon]

I'm also intrigued by your rate of increase. That seems reasonable for an old school game system.

You may have noticed in my house rules that a lot of features revolve around the numbers 4 and 6. There is a reason for that. A few years ago when I attended Troll Con, the Trolls had a panel where they discussed the, then upcoming, CKG and other things. During this panel, Steve mentioned that C&C levels are based on factors of 24 (I think he said because 24 was the highest level). That's why I always try use 4s and 6s when I incorporate a rule.

R-

[Rigon]

I give an automatic increase to attributes every 6 levels. It's not going to be a problem, because I limit the increase to racial maximums.

R-

Where's the racial max chart in C&C?

I think he's referring to racial mods. Dwarves are a +1 to Con, so 19 would be thier max, while 17 would be thier max Dex (-1 to Dex). Am I correct Rigon?

Yep.

R-

I can see where a house rule like that would hinder stat inflation problems.

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

[Rigon]

Oh, and it's not to all attributes, just one. Not sure if that was clear in my first post.

R-

[Arduin]

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

That's the max starting score. For instance, the CKG allows one to go above that without magic.

[Rigon]

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

That's the max starting score. For instance, the CKG allows one to go above that without magic.

Well, let's remember that the CKG is a book of options. I really don't use anything out of it. So in my games, attribute scores are 3-18 (give or take depending on racial modifiers).

R-

[Arduin]

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

That's the max starting score. For instance, the CKG allows one to go above that without magic.

Well, let's remember that the CKG is a book of options. I really don't use anything out of it. So in my games, attribute scores are 3-18 (give or take depending on racial modifiers).

R-

Right. All I'm saying is that options can be magic or mundane. Just like your stat increase option being mundane and much higher powered than the option in the CKG...

[Omote]

I give attribute increases, but tie them into the Advantages system. So if the PC wants +1 strength, they have to take the advantage.

~O

[Lobo316]

I give attribute increases, but tie them into the Advantages system. So if the PC wants +1 strength, they have to take the advantage.

~O

See, that I could not do. I don't give out a lot of advantages in my game as it is, but I have a feeling that if I used attribute increases as advantages, that's pretty much what everyone would choose. And why not, that's a good, safe bet. To me, if an advantage is "too good to be true", if it's a "must have", then I remove it or don't use it.

I give out an advantage at first level (but it HAS to be a racail advantage), then again at 2nd level, then at 4th and every 4 levels following (humans are not subject to the 1st level restriction).

[Lobo316]

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

That's the max starting score. For instance, the CKG allows one to go above that without magic.

Well, let's remember that the CKG is a book of options. I really don't use anything out of it. So in my games, attribute scores are 3-18 (give or take depending on racial modifiers).

R-

I use some things from the CKG...that is not one of them

If I ever would consider going above the "maximums", I'd only allow 1 point above, but even then, I doubt I'd ever go there without magic.

[Lobo316]

Oh, and it's not to all attributes, just one. Not sure if that was clear in my first post.

R-

Heh, yea, I kinda figured.

If I decide to adopt this for my game, I'm liking what you're doing here Rigon.

[Rigon]

Oh, and it's not to all attributes, just one. Not sure if that was clear in my first post.

R-

Heh, yea, I kinda figured.

If I decide to adopt this for my game, I'm liking what you're doing here Rigon.

Thanks.

R-

[Rigon]

I use some things from the CKG...that is not one of them

If I ever would consider going above the "maximums", I'd only allow 1 point above, but even then, I doubt I'd ever go there without magic.

I don't use anything out of the CKG. It took the guys so long to get it out, that I just formed my house rules for my game. And I like my rules a lot more than anything I found in the CKG.

As for allowing attributes to go above racial maximums, I only allow that through magic (gauntlets of dex, belt of giant str, wish, tome of comprehension and understanding, etc). There is no way that a person can exceed their racial max without magic.

R-

[Julian Grimm]

I don't use anything out of the CKG. It took the guys so long to get it out, that I just formed my house rules for my game. And I like my rules a lot more than anything I found in the CKG.

I'm kind of in the same boat. I already had class progressions beyond 12th, my own spell point/mana system and was already using the D20 ability score chart. Although I do find stuff like Advantages interesting.

That said, I do attribute increases just like they are from D20 so you get one point for every 4th level. I also have adjusted the racial modifiers to +/- 2 to kind of balance it out a bit.

[jdizzy001]

I use stat progression similar to what I found in pendragon. Each time a PC rolls a nat 20 when using a stat they can mark a check next to it. During the "winter phase" (which is basically when the PC's reach a sanctuary [in my campaigns a sanctuary is a generic term for places the PC can safely spend a few weeks without fear of being attacked by monsters ,etc. For example Imladris or Caras Gahlardon in Lord of the Rings]). While at a sanctuary the PC's may roll 1d20 for each check they have with an associated stat and if the unmodified roll exceeds their stat score, it increases by 1 (example- Wulf the fighter who has a str of 15 earned a check during his last adventure. When he reaches a sanctuary his player may roll 1d20 in an attempt to raise his str. He takes a d20 and rolls. The roll comes up as an unmodified 17! Wulf's str increases by 1).

No matter how many 20's a PC roles during an adventure they cant save checks and they must use or lose them at their next sanctuary stop. A PC may accumulate 1 check per stat (example- When Wulf reaches the next sanctuary he has 2 checks, 1 for his str and 1 from a lucky CHA roll he made when a banshee tried to scream him to death. He rolls 1d20 for each checked stat. He rolls for his str and scores a 11 … darn, I guess str is going to stay at 16. Now for CHA. Wulf tosses a d20 and scores a 12. Wulf's CHA is a 12 … darn, his unmodified value doesn't exceed his stat score. Looks like Wulf won't be increasing any stats this time around).

[Lobo316]

I use stat progression similar to what I found in pendragon. Each time a PC rolls a nat 20 when using a stat they can mark a check next to it. During the "winter phase" (which is basically when the PC's reach a sanctuary [in my campaigns a sanctuary is a generic term for places the PC can safely spend a few weeks without fear of being attacked by monsters ,etc. For example Imladris or Caras Gahlardon in Lord of the Rings]). While at a sanctuary the PC's may roll 1d20 for each check they have with an associated stat and if the unmodified roll exceeds their stat score, it increases by 1 (example- Wulf the fighter who has a str of 15 earned a check during his last adventure. When he reaches a sanctuary his player may roll 1d20 in an attempt to raise his str. He takes a d20 and rolls. The roll comes up as an unmodified 17! Wulf's str increases by 1).

No matter how many 20's a PC roles during an adventure they cant save checks and they must use or lose them at their next sanctuary stop. A PC may accumulate 1 check per stat (example- When Wulf reaches the next sanctuary he has 2 checks, 1 for his str and 1 from a lucky CHA roll he made when a banshee tried to scream him to death. He rolls 1d20 for each checked stat. He rolls for his str and scores a 11 … darn, I guess str is going to stay at 16. Now for CHA. Wulf tosses a d20 and scores a 12. Wulf's CHA is a 12 … darn, his unmodified value doesn't exceed his stat score. Looks like Wulf won't be increasing any stats this time around).

Hmmm...that's pretty neat. I'm not sure I'd use it, but I do find it intriguing. Pretty cool.

[jdizzy001]

It works best with the legacy rules I use especially when you can counter it with age induced stat decreases. Also in the legacy rules the stat increases shift from use at a sanctuary to the end of year phase for which I still don't have a proper name.

[Lord Dynel]

To me it just makes sense. It the maximum is an 18, then it should take some kind of magic to go beyond that.

R-

That's the max starting score. For instance, the CKG allows one to go above that without magic.

Well, let's remember that the CKG is a book of options. I really don't use anything out of it. So in my games, attribute scores are 3-18 (give or take depending on racial modifiers).

R-

Exactly, Rigon.

I started off adopting the 3.5 of "every four levels" but I've removed it. Magic will raise the scores in my games, but otherwise attribute scores follow the racial min/max scores outlined (or inferred) in the PHB.

On a related note, we rarely moved ability scores around when I first started playing (BECMI/1e/2e), unless it involved wishes (which were rare, and even rarer when used to add to an ability score) or the seldom encountered item that enhanced it (which usually was a Strength enhancing item). It wasn't until I encountered 3rd Edition that ability scores jumped around so much, at least in my experience. When coming to C&C, it was actually a fairly welcome return to the dancing ability/attribute scores. And this topic has come up a lot over the years. So, I guess my question is, what is the fascination with attribute score increases? It is just something other than magic/treasure that you hand out as rewards? I ask, sounding like I'm naive to the concept, but I ran 3.x for 12+ years. I'm not foreign to the concept, but am curious to the reasoning behind it. At least others' opinions. I imagined it was done in 3rd/4th/5th/PF as another scaling technique for PCs (at least that's what I figured for 3.x...never really played the others much or at all) but I never thought C&C needed such things. I certainly soured on the idea of ability score bonuses as "rewards" for leveling up, but that's me.

[Treebore]

I have it to where they can increase attributes in games, but I control when and how often because it takes a month fully dedicated to each ATTEMPT at an increase, plus cost of gold, etc... So if I only give them 3 months between adventures, they only have 3 tries to increase attributes. I also max this out at 18+/-1 racial mods. To go above those will require magics, such as Tomes, Wishes, and the like.

[Lord Dynel]

I have it to where they can increase attributes in games, but I control when and how often because it takes a month fully dedicated to each ATTEMPT at an increase, plus cost of gold, etc... So if I only give them 3 months between adventures, they only have 3 tries to increase attributes. I also max this out at 18+/-1 racial mods. To go above those will require magics, such as Tomes, Wishes, and the like.

An increase "attempt?" Sound interesting. Reminds me of another game...is it Rolemaster or Basic RPG? I thought I remember one where a character would try to increase a base attribute but would have to roll against the score. If he/she rolled less than the score, the score wouldn't go up. If he/she rolled higher, then it would. Is it something like that, Tree? That might be interesting.

[Treebore]

I have it to where they can increase attributes in games, but I control when and how often because it takes a month fully dedicated to each ATTEMPT at an increase, plus cost of gold, etc... So if I only give them 3 months between adventures, they only have 3 tries to increase attributes. I also max this out at 18+/-1 racial mods. To go above those will require magics, such as Tomes, Wishes, and the like.

An increase "attempt?" Sound interesting. Reminds me of another game...is it Rolemaster or Basic RPG? I thought I remember one where a character would try to increase a base attribute but would have to roll against the score. If he/she rolled less than the score, the score wouldn't go up. If he/she rolled higher, then it would. Is it something like that, Tree? That might be interesting.

That or you just remember me posting my system years ago, because that is basically it. Some added details missing, but that is the bottom line, roll a check at the end of the month to see if you get an increase.